20-07-2002 17:48									#1
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POLL INVALID.

Here is the poll to vote in.

Last edited by civman2000 on 21-07-2002 at 17:50

	20-07-2002 18:31									#2
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clause 4 is like: you'll go to prison for 500 years but you should be glad it's not life-long
and what do you mean with clause 6?
if somebody breaks the rules of apolyton, the admin will ban him without a trial, won't he? is that a case of clause 6? (if you understand what i want to say )

	20-07-2002 18:43									#3
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The rules of Apolyton.net are a higher authority, if you like, than any we come up with. Anything the Mods do we have no impact on. It goes without saying that actions performed on behalf of the site owners are excluded from these rights.

Look at these as rights within the rules of Apolyton.net itself.

	20-07-2002 19:12									#4
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clause 6 is about demogame specific rules.

Looks like this is pretty popular! all are making it so far. Only one i have serious doubts about is #4

	20-07-2002 21:09									#5
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civman, a technical question... (possibly "legal" question)

I don't understand how you're going to determine which clauses pass. 2/3 of what? total votes? but people can vote for more than 1 clause. Right now, it's something like 12 votes for the most popular, but the total is 60+ votes. You'll never get it passed that way.

Example: Say I vote for only 1 out of 8 of them, say the first. But Buddy votes for 8 out of 8. Then the first would have 100%, and every other one 50%... right?

But how do you know whether it's that case or whether 9 people voted, 2 for the first, and everyone else for just 1. In that case, it would be 2/9, and 1/9 for every other one.

I assume you would have to count them all against the total number of voters, not votes cast (which is contrary to how most polls have been done), if you wanted it to be fair because if I vote for only 3 of them, that means I am automatically voting against the other 5.

I'm just not sure how you're going to determine what constitutes 2/3. You may have to ask MarkG to tell you how many voters in total to get this right since that info isn't readily available.

	20-07-2002 21:14									#6
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Where is the reject option?

Please don't tell me it's option 9, because you have grouped abstain with that option.

For any vote you need a clear reject option, grouping it with abstain would possibly make this poll invalid.

	20-07-2002 21:21									#7
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I'm not going to vote.

I might be a judge so I want to manipulate something I would have great control over. Looks like this will pass fine anyway though.

	20-07-2002 21:29									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse I might be a judge so I want to manipulate something I would have great control over.

Hmm, power issues?

	20-07-2002 21:38									#9
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Clause 4 : non permanent must be replaced by a time limit, for instance 100 turns of the game but no more than 275 (which is 50% of the maximum possible number of turns I think).

Clause 5 : I would say '... any legal form of organisation ...'

	20-07-2002 21:55									#10
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Apoc - judges have the right to vote too - that's why I voted

Captain - a good point, but it appears that everyone who votes is approving at least a few of these, so it should be fairly easy to tell how many voters there are.
In general, though, we need to be careful with this type of poll.

DAVOUT - what would an illegal organization be like?

Timeline - I'm sure our vote option has been accounted for with your post.

	20-07-2002 22:16									#11
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3,5,7,8

	20-07-2002 22:56									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Timeline Hmm, power issues?

Well I am abstaining in a way to show I'm not trying to make some power grab.

	20-07-2002 23:04									#13
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I really don't think that this poll is valid.

	20-07-2002 23:54									#14
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Sure it is not valid.

	21-07-2002 00:02									#15
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I must vote against 7. Often patches don't get to some places for a looong time. Do we really want to get stuck with 1.17? (not that that is necessarily the case, but it's hypothetical example which may be true)

Also, I think for this poll to become valid you will have to have a 'yes' option and a 'no' option for each clause, where the 'yes' option must beat the 'no' option with 2/3 of the vote for any given clause.

	21-07-2002 00:11									#16
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The worst about this poll is, that his beloved gallup polls are hidden in a freedom of speech clause . This is called deception.

	21-07-2002 12:13									#17
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Clause 2: No citizen shall ever be denied the right to vote in any poll.

Question, if they are barred from the game, doesn't this allow them to still vote, not that I am either for or against this clause, just mentioning it. Esp. since if you could still vote, how much punishment could there be for someone barred? Also, the same would hold true for people banned from Apolyton. They would have the right to vote; they would to contact someone to get their vote counted.

Clause 4: No one shall be banned permanently from participating in the democracy game, excluding those who are permanently banned from apolyton. Note that people may still be banned for any amount of tiem, as long as it is not permanent.

It is possible that some people would need to be banned permanently; hopefully, they will be banned Apolyton if that is the case.

Clause 5: THe right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied.

Would this also apply to justices, as well?

Clause 6: No citizen may be punished in any way without due process of law.

How would we handle a need for immediate due process if not enough justices are available?

Clause 7: No president shall ever use a version of the game which is not available to all players.

Will this include Mac players, as well. I think it would have to. The reason I bring it up is that MacSoft may not patch to 1.29, and if they do, it may be a long time. Also, what about people that choose not to patch? Sometimes, it is a dial up d/l time issue.

Also, I was noticing the poll shows 107 votes; with a maximum of 14 on 5 of them; 13 on 2 of them. How will we know if a majority is reached. An assumption would be 14 people voted, but that is not necessarily accurate. As has been pointed out by Captain, this may not be true.

Just some food for thought; as well as a request for clarification.

	21-07-2002 13:56									#18
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*Ahem. If I may direct your attention to the bottom of the poll...? It reads "total 18 voters". I should think that's fairly clear how we see a majority decision.

When MarkG responds, we will know whether or not we can ban certain posters from voting for any length of time.

Wasn't there a poll on whether justices could be party members or not? This poll would give the answer. Besides, Justiceship is another layer of rules on top of these - a special case, if you will. Any and all judges should have to accept the restrictions (if any) of their position, and they would not be worthy if they challenged on a minor technical error in our Constitution.

"Immediate" due process is not immediate, but over some hours, at least 12, or so I imagine. Once again, the selection of a judge should rest partly on their (barring accidents) ability to be here often enough.

I do, however, think that we should not patch this game at all, unless something really odd comes up. My conviction in this derives from a Firaxian's statement that v1.21f saves loaded in v1.29f may experience strange effects.

I think that's everything.

	21-07-2002 16:40									#19
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It is very simple how do determine the results. It has been done many times in teh civ2 game, i dont see anyone was confused.

Each one is being voted on independantly. In accordance iwth the constitution, each with 2/3 passes. The passing ones are put together into the amendment. Voting none has the exact same effect as abstain. I don't see how this poll is invalid.

	21-07-2002 17:04									#20
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 It is very simple how do determine the results. It has been done many times in teh civ2 game, i dont see anyone was confused. Each one is being voted on independantly. In accordance iwth the constitution, each with 2/3 passes. The passing ones are put together into the amendment. Voting none has the exact same effect as abstain. I don't see how this poll is invalid.

Because you can't vote against an option, only abstain.

	21-07-2002 17:16									#21
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Well then if you want to be able to say yes no and abatain for every single option i can do that...though i'll have to use the max number of options. IOn my experience the problem with that is that some people vote for multiple options for each part instead of doing just one for each. THat's why i did it this way.

	21-07-2002 17:31									#22
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No no NO!!!!

Listen, here is how you do this kind of vote:

You need 2 options for each amandement, AND ONLY 2 OR ELS IT GETS MESSED UP.


Clause 5: THe right to associate into any form of organization shall not be denied.

Yes
No

That's it. If they want to abstain they do so by voting for neither or voting for both. This way you can reject certain portions and accept others. But this poll is INVALID as it is because there is no way to REJECT a specific option and therefore your 2/3rd majority vote is skewed.

	21-07-2002 17:37									#23
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you can reject an option by not voting on it and i highly doubt that it would skew anything but just so you'll stop complaining I'll make a new poll.