21-07-2002 08:42									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Fez: Asher is right. Pentiums are better than Athalons. There is a reason they cost so much. AMDs can do games well, but Pentiums can do everything well. The only place where they are just about equal is on games.

Yeah, and pigs fly. AMD does everything well... and Pentium would rather make a great paper weight.

quote: Ah, it's so nice to have Giancarlo back.

Who is Giancarlo? Me Fez.

	21-07-2002 08:47									#62
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quote: Originally posted by tniem Not to mention that even if the Pentium is slightly faster, it is more expensive and for me pound for the buck is very important. So I will stick with AMD.

That's why I have an AMD gaming system.

There's a difference between best of the best and best deal. Athlons always affer the best deal, but next time around when I'm not so short on cash I'll love to get an Intel.

	21-07-2002 09:00									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Fez: Asher is right. Pentiums are better than Athalons. There is a reason they cost so much. AMDs can do games well, but Pentiums can do everything well. The only place where they are just about equal is on games.

He's right only if you measure in absolute terms, but that is plainly silly. With the same amount of money I spend on a top end P4 system I can whip up a dual AMD processor system, and two is always better than one.

Intel is more expensive because many people think it's better, but not if you count in relative performance terms.

Gian clearly stated he wanted to buy the best within budget constraints, so that clearly pointed to an AMD system. Glonkie either can't read or is out trolling, but he starts acting strange when somebody else trolls him

	21-07-2002 09:02									#64
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UR, his statements contradicted themselves.
First he says:

quote: I build with the best of the best. I don't ever, I mean ever skimp on a part.

Clearly implying he never skimps on a part.

Then he says:

quote: I buy the best I can with the money I am allowed to spend.

It's not fun trolling Gianny with the second phrase, so I chose the first.

	21-07-2002 09:05									#65
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BTW, a Pentium 4 2200 is $226, a Athlon XP 2200+ is $211.

There's not a big price difference with comparable systems.

It's only the excessively fast Pentium 4s that have a markup.

For motherboards, the KT333 chipset for Athlons is $72 at the cheapest, while i850 (RDRAM) is $43 and the i845 (DDR) is $40.

Add them up, and the 2200 Athlon system costs $283, the 2200 Pentium 4 system costs $266-269. Not much cheaper, is it?

edit: duh, past=fast

Last edited by Asher on 21-07-2002 at 09:21

	21-07-2002 09:19									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Asher UR, his statements contradicted themselves. First he says: Clearly implying he never skimps on a part. Then he says: It's not fun trolling Gianny with the second phrase, so I chose the first.

Pah, you're just picking a fight. Bored at home?

	21-07-2002 09:20									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Pah, you're just picking a fight. Bored at home?

I'm trying to find something to distract me from this math assignment.

	21-07-2002 09:32									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Asher BTW, a Pentium 4 2200 is $226, a Athlon XP 2200+ is $211. There's not a big price difference with comparable systems. It's only the excessively fast Pentium 4s that have a markup. For motherboards, the KT333 chipset for Athlons is $72 at the cheapest, while i850 (RDRAM) is $43 and the i845 (DDR) is $40. Add them up, and the 2200 Athlon system costs $283, the 2200 Pentium 4 system costs $266-269. Not much cheaper, is it? edit: duh, past=fast

That seems reasonable, until you realise the AMD 2200XP is the top of the line item.

Let's move down one notch and see:

Athlon 2000XP $127
P4 2.0GHz $221

Oops.

	21-07-2002 09:35									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That seems reasonable, until you realise the AMD 2200XP is the top of the line item. Let's move down one notch and see: Athlon 2000XP $127 P4 2.0GHz $221 Oops.

a 2.2GHz P4 is $226 and 2.0GHz is $221?

That is very clever, using the obsolete rare-socket part.

The Socket 478 2.0GHz P4 is $184, the old (423?) P4 is $221. No one buys those anymore unless you've got an old P4 motherboard.

	21-07-2002 10:13									#70
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Asher, you like ignoring two important points.
AMD processes more instructions per cycle than the Intel part, which tends to tell you where the better design is. AMD's big problem is the have to move to the 0.13um processing to get the clock speed up. So the P4 wins for now, but the crown sits uneasy on the head.
BTW, speed is NOT everything. At work I use 20+ processor servers which are only clocked at 700MHz but I guarantee you those will knock the socks off anything Intel builds. More IS better .

	21-07-2002 10:15									#71
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And Asher, one more thing. Looks at the specs on the new Nvidia board and try to whine about FSB and bus size for P4 vs Athlon.

	21-07-2002 10:16									#72
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cia, the G4 processes more instructions per cycle than the AMD part, does that make it better?

It's all about striking a balance for OVERALL performance.

Speed, as I talk about it, is IPC * MHz. You seem to think I'm only talking about MHz. I understand there are 1GHz and under CPUs that knock the pants off regular CPUs (hell, Intel's Itanium 2 is one of them!), but that's not what I'm talking about.

The Pentium 4 strikes a good balance between raw clock speed and IPC, which is why it's working so well right now for them. It can scale incredibly well, not just in terms of MHz but in terms of SPEED.

The Athlon was never designed to work at this high speed, and it's showing now. Even at 0.13 micron it can't scale much higher. That's why they've done some major redesigns with the hammers, like giving a longer pipeline...

	21-07-2002 10:18									#73
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quote: Originally posted by cia And Asher, one more thing. Looks at the specs on the new Nvidia board and try to whine about FSB and bus size for P4 vs Athlon.

Huh?
There is no new Nvidia board, are you talking about the new ATI R300/Radeon 9700?

And the P4 and Athlon have the same bus size, both are 64-bit @ 133MHz. It's that the Pentium 4's bus is QDR, for effective 533MHz, and Athlon's is DDR, for effective 266MHz.

	21-07-2002 10:23									#74
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The nforce2 chipset is coming out on some new boards. Too lazy to get the article but it's on Tom's hardware.
Here's an oft overlooked fact Asher. When you want REAL speed, use the memory man. Check this out: www.cenatek.com. Strap one or two of those with about 2Gig of your programs loaded on them and benchmark.

	21-07-2002 10:28									#75
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Ohhh, the nForce2. I thought you were talking about a graphics board.

The nForce2 looks sexy in paper, but so did the nForce1. We'll see how it turns out.

	21-07-2002 10:32									#76
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Agreed.
But the fact is that no one here REALLY wants to play at the next PC level. It's too damn expensive. Drop the whole box in pure water and run everthing off DDR with flash memory as backup.
But it's good to dream.

	21-07-2002 10:35									#77
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I really want a Pentium 4 version of the nForce 2 -- something that can actually use the dual-DDR memory. Too bad Intel prices licensing too high.

	21-07-2002 19:11									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Asher UR, his statements contradicted themselves. First he says: Clearly implying he never skimps on a part. Then he says: It's not fun trolling Gianny with the second phrase, so I chose the first.

I see no contradictions you dumb fool.

While Asher is on his crusade against AMD, with his completely unsupported statements I will just sit back here and laugh!

	21-07-2002 20:21									#79
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Asher, you b4stard, you are making me agree with Fez, and I HATE THAT ... AMD is much better than Intel I built two computers 4 months ago. One with an Athlon XP 1700+ and one with a P4 1.7 GhZ... both have identical components and the Athlon outperforms the P4, and costed 50 bucks less at the time.

Intels are more stable for running business apps, but if you want performance for games and a processor that is 50 bucks less for equal performance, then buy AMD. If you want to have that Intel name and the illusion of quality, buy Intel.

	21-07-2002 22:34									#80
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Sava, the Athlons are almost always cheaper. That's AMD's "thing". For a while, they did outperform P4s.

Intels are now faster for everything, and around the same price if you buy the same speed (like a 2000 P4 + 2000 Athlon). It's just that the Athlon maxes out at 2200 since AMD is rather inept with production, while the P4 is going to launch at 2800(!) in a week or two.

Look at the benchmarks yourself. AMD isn't going to have a high performing chip until it launches their new Clawhammer chips in early 2003.

And if both have identical components, you didn't configure your P4 like a high end P4. 4 months ago you should have used RDRAM if you wanted speed, not DDR like the Athlon. Although the brand-new DDR400 systems perform just as well, memory-wise...

P4s are still faster now, since the "Northwood" core came out. 512KB of L2 cache, 533MHz system bus pushes it over the edge of the Athlon. They're roughly equal performance at the same "rating" now, it's just that Intel has many speed grades above what AMD offers.

quote: I see no contradictions you dumb fool.

You honestly don't see any contradictions saying you'll never skimp on any part, then saying you're only buying what you can easily afford?

	21-07-2002 22:46									#81
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You people have been bickeriing for thee pages now. Do you really thik it's worth it? I think I'm going to get a cup of coffee.

	21-07-2002 22:59									#82
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I really don't see Fez's point. 'Athlons are faster', when they demonstratably aren't, for the top end?

	22-07-2002 00:24									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You honestly don't see any contradictions saying you'll never skimp on any part, then saying you're only buying what you can easily afford?

My budget is high thank you very much... but I wouldn't want to waste my money on shitty garbage we know as Intel.

1.7Ghz Intel Pentium 4 (I think it was) or AMD Althon XP 1600+... was the choice I had when I last upgraded... I chose the AMD for better. I don't want garbage in my computer.

	22-07-2002 00:26									#84
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There you have it, UR, I chose the right statement to troll.

	22-07-2002 00:34									#85
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quote: but I wouldn't want to waste my money on shitty garbage we know as Intel.

	22-07-2002 00:38									#86
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So? Why the **** would I want to follow some obviously fixed tests? I wouldn't.

	22-07-2002 00:40									#87
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You're a funny guy, Fez.
It's a big conspiracy.
Intel is paying off the SPEC people, Tom's Hardware, AnandTech, SharkyExtreme, ExtremeTech (ZDnet), etc. They're all LIARS.

	22-07-2002 00:44									#88
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You know what I wonder who is making the proper donations to whom here... I wonder...

WHY, OH WHY THE HELL WOULD I WANT GARBAGE RUNNING IN MY COMPUTER? That is like hard-drives, I avoid Fujitsus going with Maxtors, and avoiding Intel going with AMD.

	22-07-2002 00:45									#89
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I wonder if you have any concept of the AMD and Intel history...
There's a reason why corporations buy Intel even if AMD may be faster and cheaper: "Nobody ever got fired for buying Intel".

Can you explain to the class why Intel is **** and AMD is so much better?

	22-07-2002 00:49									#90
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Again, why would I want garbage running in my computer? Putting Intel in is like pouring water on my components... no good...