01-08-2002 05:12									#31
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well, in true practice, a representitive government is what the united states and most other "democracies" have. It is actually the system that a republic uses. In a true democracy everything would be voted on by the people themselves. This would become EXTREMELY inefficient if a country was of any significant size. If aployton were to impliment the AC style social egeneering system, democracy should be able to be researched around the same time as republic and probably before since democracy was a greek creation long before the founding of the roman republic. Democracy should thus have a higher inefficiency rating, but it would probably be lower on corruption. The governments should also grow with time. New techs should get rid of some of the inefficiencies or possibly add some. I liked the AC system very much and would like to see it incorporated into civ3.

--Impact

	01-08-2002 05:54									#32
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The Authoritarian structure options could be something like:
Absolutism - one absolute ruler
Aristocracy - elite rule
Limited Democracy - suffrage for property-owning men
Representative Democracy - universal suffrage

	01-08-2002 21:13									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Optimizer The Authoritarian structure options could be something like: Absolutism - one absolute ruler Aristocracy - elite rule Limited Democracy - suffrage for property-owning men Representative Democracy - universal suffrage

I'm missing a system where all powers are in the hands of a ruling PARTY (Communism, Fascism...), supported by the military and secret services: a police state.

	02-08-2002 08:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Dimorier Maximus I think social engineering is Civ4 stuff, but what the heck, I'll throw out my ideas for it: Authoritarian Structure: Chieftan (no tech required) Imperial (available with Monarchy tech) Representative (available with Republic tech) Democratic (available with Democracy tech) Economic Structure: Primitive (no tech required) Free Market (available with Economics tech) Command (same as planned, available with Communism tech) Green (available with Recycling tech) Religious Structure: Ancestral (no tech required) Polytheistic (available with Polytheism tech) Monotheistic (available with Monotheism tech) Secular (available with Scientific Method tech) City Structure: Tribal (no tech required) Colonial (available with Magnetism tech) Federation (available with Democracy tech) Centralized (available with Monarchy tech) All these different choices would have their ups and downs, but you would most likely want to get out of the default choices ASAP. For example, Green would be great for cutting down on pollution, but it would suck for your productivity and commerce. Democratic would be great for a peaceful, scientific, cultural civilization, but beware of the war weariness if you pick a fight. Free Market would work wonders for your commerce, but your happiness would take a hit. Monotheism would be good for happiness, but it would hurt your science output. As far as Civ3 goes, I think the only governments missing are Theocracy and Fascism. I plan on submitting them to Firaxis for inclusion in Play the World. Now I just need to go to the editor and make them.

I didn't like the idea of a true demacracy, but then decided I liked it. I should though be competely unviable until later, then only a good option much later.

I also think there should be more city structure options.

quote: Originally posted by Optimizer The Authoritarian structure options could be something like: Absolutism - one absolute ruler Aristocracy - elite rule Limited Democracy - suffrage for property-owning men Representative Democracy - universal suffrage

I find this comprehensive, except of course absence of police state. Perhaps an assorted city-state government?

	02-08-2002 23:04									#35
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Mono- and polytheism not really represent different systems with different advantages/disadvantages.

I support my own "Fascism" option (what else) as it gives you a SUBSTITUTE for religion. In a fascist system there are still practised religions (Christianity/Hitler) but they are suppressed by the ruling system and powerless.

And, as a Civ player, I like to supress religion...

In game terms: All your temples and cathedrales keep their effects, BUT during Fascism, you cannot build them.
They would also produce no culture points. Only Colosseums could be built.

Wow, too much thinking for now...

	03-08-2002 03:41									#36
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You evil suppresser!

Anyways, inspired by this thread, I made a mod that has added three new governments to Civ3: Fascism, Theocracy, and Corporate Rebublic. I also tweaked the other governments. The link is in my signature or here.

	03-08-2002 23:30									#37
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To make things more complicated, here is what my options would look like:

POLITICAL SYSTEM:

NONE (Standard Tile Penalty, high corruption and waste rate, no war weariness, no unit upkeep up to 4 units per town/city/metropolis, military police limit: 3, darft rate: 2, assimilation rate: 0%, forced labor)
MONARCHY (made available by: Monarchy; problematic corruption and waste rate; no war weariness; no unit upkeep up to 2/4/8 units per town/city metropolis, military police limit: 2, draft rate: 2, assimilation rate: 10%, paid labor, veteran diplomats and veteran spies)
DEMOCRACY (Republic; low corruption and waste rate, low war weariness, 1 gold upkeep per unit, draft rate: 1, assimilation rate: 20%, paid labor, elite diplomats), trade bonus = + 1 commerce on squares that already produce at least two commerce)
POLICE STATE (Nationalism; low corruption and waste rate, no war weariness, no unit upkeep up to 4/8/12 units per town/ city/ metropolis,military police limit: 5, draft rate: 3, assimilation rate: 1%, forced labor, elite spies, cities cannot grow beyond size 18, all larger cities shrink when police state is implemented)

ECONOMICAL SYSTEM

NONE
FREE MARKET (Economy; large cities produce extra commerce, lower corruption rate (just like the „commercial“ civ special ability), one content citizen in each city becomes unhappy (because of unemployment), + 5% total income per turn (up to 50 gold, „Wall Street“-effect), + 1 gold unit upkeep)
PLANNED (Communism; corruption and waste rate is the same for each city (communal), banks (as well as stock exchanges?) only increase city income by 25%, worker rate + 50%, factories and manufacturing plants cost no maintenance, resources iron and coal are always available)
MODERN (Miniaturization; worker rate + 100%, + 1 gold worker upkeep, large cities produce extra shields (just like the „industrious civ special ability), pollution doubled for each city, improvements that fight pollution become useless)

RELIGIOUS SYSTEM

NONE
FUNDMENTALISM (Monotheism; doubles effects of temples and cathedrals (culture and content faces), luxuries lose their effects, luxury rate always is 0%, - 50% science rate, + 4 free units per town/city/metropolis because of fanaticism, decreases war weariness, draft rate + 1)
FASCISM (Nationalism; temples, cathedrals cannot be built and produce no culture points but keep producing content faces, military police limit + 4, - 1 gold upkeep for spearmen, pikemen, musketeers, musketmen, riflemen, infantry and mech. infantry (if higher than 1 gold), courthouses become 25% more efficient, decreases war weariness, Assimilation rate + 5%)
SECULAR (Scientific Method; temples and cathedrals lose all their effects, + 2 content faces in each city with library, + 25% science rate, increases war weariness, output of universities and research labs + 50%, military police limit - 2, draft rate - 1, - 2 free units per town/city/metropolis)

So, what do you think of these modest suggestions?
I’m ready to argue about any one of them...

	03-08-2002 23:31									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Dimorier Maximus Anyways, inspired by this thread, I made a mod that has added three new governments to Civ3: Fascism, Theocracy, and Corporate Rebublic. I also tweaked the other governments. The link is in my signature or here.

Downloading...

	04-08-2002 04:30									#39
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Police state - Modern - Secular.....that is what I would conquer the world with every game.

+1 unit costs for Free Market makes it useless IMHO. It offsets the commercial bonus and the Wall Street bonus when you get 25 units which isn't hard at all to do if you got more than 3 cities.

	04-08-2002 11:22									#40
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Why isn't there a moderate religion thing? America isn't secular. I can't go anywhere without seeing someone mention their god (god bless america, in god we trust, one nation under god, jesus this jesus that (imagine how I feel being a member of an atheist religion but still being religious)), and we certainly aren't fundamentalist. Would I set my religous system to none?

Last edited by hzm on 04-08-2002 at 12:15

	04-08-2002 19:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by hzm Would I set my religous system to none?

yes

	04-08-2002 19:13									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dimorier Maximus +1 unit costs for Free Market makes it useless IMHO. It offsets the commercial bonus and the Wall Street bonus when you get 25 units which isn't hard at all to do if you got more than 3 cities.

hmhmhm... maybe you're right, but I don't think so...
the commercial bonus should be high enough if you don't build too many units - remember, free market is not a system for WAR, but for peacetime

	06-08-2002 07:21									#43
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As I see it, Fascism is going to be needed in PtW, since they've said they're going to have a WWII senario. If they don't have Fascism, what government is Germany going to be, they definitly can't be Communist, since along with the Jews, Commies were one of the groups the Nazis persecuted.

	07-08-2002 23:22									#44
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar You blokes have Buckingham even though you're a democracy!

Umm while we are a democracy, we are also a Constitutional Monarchy, that is why there is a Queen along with Prime Minister. Alot like Australia and Canada who have a prime minister but the Queen as head of state.

	10-08-2002 09:21									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Darkworld Ark As I see it, Fascism is going to be needed in PtW, since they've said they're going to have a WWII senario. If they don't have Fascism, what government is Germany going to be, they definitly can't be Communist, since along with the Jews, Commies were one of the groups the Nazis persecuted.

And why wouldn't they be a despotism?

	10-08-2002 13:20									#46
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What we realy need is BOOST for Despotism.

So it becomes viable (but surely far away from prefect) government even in later stages.

Something like 8 free units in cities (4 in towns) and 16 free in metropolis.

Could be better option then Monarchy if you have HEAVY MILITARY (better it be, since you'll suffer heavy economy & growth penalities).


P.S.
Having doubled cost for unit cost in wartime could be nice twist too. It would favor governments with lots of "free units" abilities.

	10-08-2002 15:34									#47
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quote: Originally posted by sprucemoose3311 here are gov types i would put in: totalitarianism police state dictatorship (more corruption, unhappiness, stronger military) corporate republic: govt is both governing body and money makin business. cant tax people. war weariness is high

hi ,

, but a dictatorship should only have certain units , more foot soldiers , not tanks or so , ...

and there should at least be 4 new types of government in PTW , ...

have a nice day

	10-08-2002 16:35									#48
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quote: Originally posted by hzm And why wouldn't they be a despotism?

Because Despotism sucks. The Germans couldn't have taken over all of Mainland Europe if they had the stupid "More than two, take away one" thing.

	10-08-2002 21:58									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Darkworld Ark The Germans couldn't have taken over all of Mainland Europe if they had the stupid "More than two, take away one" thing.

I agree... We NEED Fascism in the game.

If we do not get social egineering...

	10-08-2002 21:59									#50
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Having doubled cost for unit cost in wartime could be nice twist too. It would favor governments with lots of "free units" abilities.

Good suggestion.

	12-08-2002 14:41									#51
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If, for some reason, there are no new government types in PTW, does the AI use moded governments? And if it does, does it seem like it knows what its doing when it uses one of the moded govs?

	13-08-2002 05:19									#52
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I have to disagree with social engineering in any Civ on aesthetic grounds. Social engineering makes sense in SMAC as sociology would be sufficiently advanced from the beginning. Changing aspects, such as from planned to free market economics, requires changing not just the law but popular ideology and culture as well. Free markets won't work if people are still following communist-style, industrial-productivity thinking, rather than hire-and-fire, worker-mobility and opportunism. A mass broadcast of ideas isn't possible until the Printing Press. I suspect it would have little effect until Nationalism. I believe national leaders couldn't effectively address a nation until the radio and television. This only allows social engineering in the modern age. This seems too late in the game for a new, fundamental game mechanic.

Historians might argue that I'm showing a modern-populace bias. If any historian can state an early social change that wasn't a complete revolution or natural, inevitable progress, then I can be persuaded. I would consider the secularisation during the Age of Enlightment as a natural result of scientific progress. I would consider the destruction of feudalism as an inevitable consequence of industrialisation and republican revolutions.

	13-08-2002 05:33									#53
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I'd have Fundanentalism back in-
-A research level at 10% of democracy
-The economy weaker than Monarchy
-Corruption equal to Monarchy
-Can support 10 units per city before upkeep needed

	13-08-2002 05:43									#54
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I'd have Fundanentalism back in-
-A research level at 10% of democracy
-The economy weaker than Monarchy
-Corruption equal to Monarchy
-Can support 10 units per city before upkeep needed

	13-08-2002 05:46									#55
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Fundamentalism & Fascism...

	13-08-2002 15:07									#56
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quote: Originally posted by HAND

Nah,
Nobody would use that.

	13-08-2002 17:24									#57
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quote: Originally posted by ammt603 If, for some reason, there are no new government types in PTW, does the AI use moded governments? And if it does, does it seem like it knows what its doing when it uses one of the moded govs?

The AI definitely uses modded governments, and seems to know what it's doing. Also, you can set the preferred government for each civ in the editor, and then they are even more likely to use whatever government(s) you add.

One of these days I'll finish up my mod and post it....

	14-08-2002 02:16									#58
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thanks Stuie

	14-08-2002 05:45									#59
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Nah, Nobody would use that.

How about 15 units before upkeep needed? I would prefer it to be called 'Military State' rather then fundamentalism too. It would be an advanced form of despotism...like what Democracy is to Republic..

	14-08-2002 06:22									#60
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quote: Originally posted by HAND It would be an advanced form of despotism...like what Democracy is to Republic..

So everybody would still use Despotism?