03-11-2002 13:06									#151
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Sorry for the delay. I've been asked to hold off for a bit. There may be some developments.

	07-11-2002 03:32									#152
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Guys, there seems to be some bad news. Duke of Marlbrough has randomly checked the game file, and has found that Civfan appears to be cheating.

Here's what he sent me: (I've got his permission to post this)

*********************************************
The Chin player appears to have been rush buying units without having enough income from normal game play to have done so.

When focusing on the July1213 turn, there are five cities in which a unit (100+ shields) was finished. The very next turn (1214Jan), those same five cities had completly new units (same size) built in them. The turn after that (1214July), there were then 10 cities that then had full production boxes for large units being built.

The player does not have enough income per turn to have rushed these units by normal means. From what I can tell, it appears there were no units disbanded to accomplish this, no caravans were delivered, and there was no support from any other players. I then sent an e-mail the address that was given on page 1 of this thread to the player and asked them to explain how this may have happened. Along with the message was the stipulation that if I had not heard back from them that this information would be posted in the game thread. So, here it is.

If there are any questions you may contact me at CFC.

Duke of Marlbrough
*********************************************

I guess that we'll need a new Chin player

	07-11-2002 03:40									#153
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Could we possibly consider restarting? The Chin beating the Mongols bad (as it seems they have) is a pretty big deal in a Mongols PBEM, and when we find it's a result of cheating...

	07-11-2002 04:39									#154
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'd like to hear from Civfan. But as for the Chin BEATING the Mongols, that's overstating it just a bit, don't you think? Still, significant attrition has been caused by large numbers of sappers and cavalry I did not expect. Perhaps we can save the game if we just let the AI handle the Chin from now on.

	07-11-2002 04:45									#155
	Remove this text

Ok, that's just what he made it sound like.

	07-11-2002 05:55									#156
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Cheating. Bull...... I'm clearing my name right here in the open. I have not cheated in this game or in any other.

1) Rush buying isn't consider cheating.
2) Look at the improvements in every damn city of the CHIN EMPIRE. I've been selling everything off every single turn. Thats at least 5 turns!
3) I've been selling every improvement since the Kazem declared war on me. You can cross examine him if you like. He wanted to bargain for some cities.
I told him its no problem for him to take my cities, I'm selling off the improvemnts to fund the war against the mongols. Check the cities near the Kazem empire. They are stripped down to the bone, lossing population as i'm bleeding them to death.
4) for this email you sent me, what email address?
5)For everyone in this game and who wish to take a look at all the files. The password for the CHIN EMPIRE is tiger111
6) Look at every city and compare the improvements. Every city I sold something everyturn. Improvements gave upto 200 gold.

Last edited by Civfan on 07-11-2002 at 06:16

	07-11-2002 06:37									#157
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This email was never received at jmegill@learn.senecac.on.ca

A better investigation into calling someone a cheater should be considered when doing so. It ruins the game and the idea of pbem.

	07-11-2002 15:22									#158
	Put an end to popups!

DoM's just contacted me, and has stated that he got it wrong, and that Civfan's telling the absolute truth. He's sent an apology to Civfan's CFC login.

BTW, Civfan, the email adress which DoM contacted you at was jmegill@learn.seneca.ca which is the adress you provided on the first page of this thread.

	08-11-2002 01:16									#159
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is most unforunate. I'm sorry this happened, Civfan. Do you want to continue with the game? Since you've revealed your maps, I think it's your call. My turn was almost finished before this came up. I will post it if you want to carry on.

	08-11-2002 03:04									#160
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Civfan 3) I've been selling every improvement since the Kazem declared war on me. You can cross examine him if you like. He wanted to bargain for some cities. I told him its no problem for him to take my cities, I'm selling off the improvemnts to fund the war against the mongols. Check the cities near the Kazem empire. They are stripped down to the bone, lossing population as i'm bleeding them to death.

Absolutely true!! What I am conquering is only ruins!

Civfan, sorry I wasn't able to come and state this before, but I had no access to a computer (as stated a few posts above) since Monday!

And I am sorry you've been unjustly accused ! (but glad it was unjustly )

So Civfan, for me it's up to you whether you want to restart or keep on playing...

And Case, it's already the 2nd time a player is called a cheater a bit too early in a game where we are both playing...

Paying attention to what happens in the game, and even having someone neutral crosschecking the save, is good, but when there is some suspicion, a little more time should be allowed to the accused before it is brought in the open: not everybody can access the web every single day of the year, and even if they do, sometimes sh!t happens (like having a wrong email adress...).

	08-11-2002 07:09									#161
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Well, whats happend has happend. I'm not going to ruin a good game for everyone else here but I'm short for time for the next couple of weeks. I think everyone should continue but with one recommendation, give some techs from the CHIN empire to the SUNG since they are weak without the CHIN empire with a strong leader. They need the CHINA horseman or something its called but a tech needs to be removed since it will make it obsolete. Giving the CHIN to another player is not great since the circumstances. Maybe give the sung empire the horsmen and let the sung and mongols declare war on the chin will balance it out. Anyways i'm outta here.

	08-11-2002 07:18									#162
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Why don't I online-gift the Sung Empire to the Chin, and then take over the Chin? That would solve our horsemen problem at least. Anyway sad to see you go, I would have been happy to continue playing with ya.

	12-11-2002 19:47									#163
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ok guys before the game dies, what do you think we should do? Gift the Sung to the Chin, gift the Chin to the Sung, or find a new Chin player?

	12-11-2002 20:29									#164
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Definitely NOT combine the Chin and the Sung.

	12-11-2002 21:20									#165
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Why not? We were allied to the death against the Mongols, so it's not a big change. The only difference would be whether or not I'd have China cavalry to work with.

	12-11-2002 21:36									#166
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Historically the Sung and Mongols were allied against the Chin. I'm already getting bogged down against the Chin, who apparently have an inexaustable supply of improvements to sell off. Civfan's suggestion has merit.

	12-11-2002 21:40									#167
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I know that was the case historically, but this is a PBEM and we had the choice to make our own alliances, which we did.

	14-11-2002 10:50									#168
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Other players feel free to chime in. I can post my save game as soon as we can decide what we're gonna do.

	14-11-2002 14:22									#169
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I think we should find a new Chin player rather than combine Chin and Sung.

	15-11-2002 06:48									#170
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quote: I think we should find a new Chin player rather than combine Chin and Sung.

I agree. Seeing as Tech's struggling against the Chin by themselves, it would be cruel to make him face both the Chinese Civs

	15-11-2002 07:44									#171
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

i might be interested in playing but i don't have the original scenario, is the one at CFC the most uptodate one? I did find the pbem files from the first page of this thread too.

	15-11-2002 09:18									#172
	Got spare money?

Yep, just download the civfan version and update it with the files here. If I've got it wrong, let someone speak now...

	15-11-2002 09:19									#173
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I think that the version at CFC is the most recent - the readme should say that it's version 3.1

	15-11-2002 11:18									#174
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CFC did have the latest version, so i'm ok on the file side.

I'll play the Chin If you'll have me.

email is: david_schowalter@hotmail.com
I have aim, icq, yahoo, and msn.

I guess I'll have some diplomacy to do before I play my time.

I imagine that all the diplomacy I'll be doing with tech is agreeing to disagree Unless you want to make an alliance and crush the

	15-11-2002 13:53									#175
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Welcome H Tower!

Maybe the war between Khwarezm and Chin Empire is nearly over??

	17-11-2002 05:44									#176
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*bump* where is everybody? will you have me or not?

	17-11-2002 06:41									#177
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yep

I think that it's Techumseh's turn.

	19-11-2002 04:34									#178
	Increase the size of your Attachments

OK, here it is. Sorry for the delay.

Attachment: mongol1214july.net
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	20-11-2002 04:35									#179
	Support Apolyton

The Chin empire is trying to perform diplomacy with several nations, if everyone would be patient that would be great

	22-11-2002 04:38									#180
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tech, some of your units were still moving when i opened the game, I think I saw a scout suicide against the great wall, and i saw some other movement as well from your units