23-07-2002 13:29									#1
	8 Children Killed in Israeli Attack Remove this text

In a successful bid to kill a Hamas terrorist, the Israeli military has targetted a Palestinian block of flats from the air.

15 people were killed including 8 children.

quote: The Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, congratulated his forces on the air strike, which he described as "a great success".

When interviewed on the news this morning an Israeli govt spokesman said that they had no idea that there would be Palestinian civilians in an apartment block in the middle of the night....

Do any of you think that this was justified?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2145267.stm

	23-07-2002 13:32									#2
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Hey, my thread was the first!

	23-07-2002 13:33									#3
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Yeah, sorry - I think we must have crosss-posted.

	23-07-2002 13:34									#4
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Fighting terror with terror is no way to move forward in resolving the conflict in the Middle East.

You don't fight for peace. You peace for peace!

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~Dominik - Lord of the Putumayo~

	23-07-2002 13:55									#5
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Of course this is not justified. To me this is simply terrorist attack, regardless who carried it out.

	23-07-2002 15:52									#6
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Hey Gnu himself said that as long as one targets militants it's ok if civilians get in the way. Only he said it about the Israelis.

Anyhoo this is sad.

	23-07-2002 15:56									#7
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quote: The militant Palestinian group Hamas has confirmed that the leader of its military wing has been killed in an Israeli air strike on a residential building in Gaza City. Sheikh Salah Shahada was among at least 15 people killed, including eight children, in the missile attack.

That's the target.

At least we target terrorists.

	23-07-2002 16:00									#8
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"At least we target terrorists."

Is it ok for Palestinians then to target extreme right Israeli politicians like a certain (IIRC tourism) minster ?

	23-07-2002 16:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh When interviewed on the news this morning an Israeli govt spokesman said that they had no idea that there would be Palestinian civilians in an apartment block in the middle of the night.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2145267.stm

The Israeli govt. Spokesman is a moron. Really. And this is all because such nominations are made of political reasons rather than professional reasons.

As for Sharon congratulating the attack, I'm sure he said that before the news of the unnecessary casualties came to his knowledge. He's not a heartless murderer, despite what the Pals may tell you. Yes, he may be brute sometimes but he's not a cold-blooded killer.

P.S. Just to set things straight I'm a moderate left-wing and I'd rather see the head of the Israeli Labor party in the prime minister's office than Ariel Sharon.

	23-07-2002 16:06									#10
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quote: Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said on Tuesday that the IAF air strike which killed the head of the Hamas's military wing overnight Tuesday was a "great success" but expressed regret over the deaths of 14 other Palestinians in the attack, while the United Nations and European Union condemned the strike. "We of course have no interest in striking civilians and are always sorry over civilians who were struck," Sharon told cabinet ministers at a government meeting on the economy. "But this operation, in my view, is one of the great successes and of course demands that we will all be on full alert (against further attacks by Hamas). We cannot reach any compromise with terror, terror must be fought."

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...SubContrassID=0

So in short: We don't strike at civilians, but if the die who cares.

	23-07-2002 16:08									#11
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Well, Palestinians are not real people anyway in the eyes of the Israeli goverment.

	23-07-2002 16:10									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "At least we target terrorists." Is it ok for Palestinians then to target extreme right Israeli politicians like a certain (IIRC tourism) minster ?

No, because they are politicians, not militants. They may make horrible racists remarks but after all, it's a free country. AFAIK they're not members of any militant groups* nor do they intentionally incite violent riots like the arab Knesset (Israeli Parliament) members do.

Israel doesn't hurt Palestinian politicians as well, as long as they stick to politics.

* We had a group called Kah which desired Knesset representation but was disqualified from the Knesset by the high court of justice because they were carrying out undemocratic acts (I don't know much of the details but I think they were involved in terror acts against Israeli arabs). Other than that there are no right-wing parties which could be proven to be linked with terror in Israel that I know of.

	23-07-2002 16:13									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Well, Palestinians are not real people anyway in the eyes of the Israeli goverment.

IMHO what you are saying is unacceptable. Please back up your arguments instead of throwing racist remarks and flamebait at people.

	23-07-2002 16:15									#14
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No, I've yet to see anyone of the Israeli goverment show remorse for the suffering of innocent palestinians in their anti-terrorist operations. If you think that's racist that's your little problem.

	23-07-2002 16:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Of course this is not justified. To me this is simply terrorist attack, regardless who carried it out.

I wouldn't call this a terrorist attack. Terrorist attacks are meant to strike fear and terror into the hearts of civilians, while this operation was not meant to do so. Though you could argue that Israeli air strikes do strike terror in the hearts of Palestinians, this is not the real goal of those missions.
You can however say that this air strike was illegitimate because it killed innocent bystanders (which I would completely agree with you on), or because Israel has no right to kill Palestinian terrorist leaders (which I won't), but stick to proper terminology and don't call this operation an act of terror.

	23-07-2002 16:17									#16
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"No, because they are politicians, not militants."

Then attacks on politicians who order attacks are ok (Sharon or Eliezer)?

	23-07-2002 16:17									#17
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Oh wait, opened up the Haaretz daily and the IDF did. Nice. I take it back.
(even if they blaimed the deaths mostly on terrorists using civilians as shields.)

	23-07-2002 16:23									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin No, I've yet to see anyone of the Israeli goverment show remorse for the suffering of innocent palestinians in their anti-terrorist operations.

Seriously now, have you ever opened an Israeli newspaper? Or listened to a Knesset debate? (they're being broadcasted on TV so everyone can watch them)
What you're saying is inherently wrong, since there are parties such as Meretz (which currently has 10 seats in the parliament and was a member of several governments during the last ten years) which sympathise with the Palestinian people and condemn IDF attacks and incursions saying that these will hurt innocent civilians and will only incite more resistance and violence, and often actively aid humanitarian efforts.
The abovementioned party is not an "arab party", btw. Though it has arab members it was founded by Jews and led mostly by Jews, so it's not just the arabs in the Knesset that look out for themselves.

	23-07-2002 16:25									#19
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I was speaking of the present goverment. I can't watch or understand a Knesset debate anyhow.

	23-07-2002 16:29									#20
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I apologize for the remarks made in my previous post regarding reading Israeli newspapers. I am also glad you red Ha'aretz. You should read it more often, there are some opinions there that you might like.
Just as a side note, roughly 15% of the Jewish population in Israel that read newspapers read Ha'aretz. It's considered to be a paper of high quality (it gives extensive coverage to culture and the columnists are better writers than most other Israeli columnists) but it's also considered politically unbalanced (though it doesn't claim to be such).

	23-07-2002 16:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I was speaking of the present goverment.

Then you are still wrong but nevermind that, I don't think I'll be able to convince you anyway.

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I can't watch or understand a Knesset debate anyhow.

Yeah, it's too bad they can't add English subtitles as the debates are being broadcast live. Sorry, I didn't realize you can't read Hebrew (kindof egocentric of me isn't it?).

	23-07-2002 16:58									#22
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Of cource I might have missed out on some form of remorse from the Israeli goverment. As I don't find the time to read Haaretz daily (and yes it's a quailty paper, that's why I try to read it) and other news in Sweden is afterall sometimes about other things than the Israeli goverment. Still, I haven't heard any and I follow the development of the worlds longest and bloodiest soap-opera quite often.

	23-07-2002 17:00									#23
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Oh and no, nothing egocentric about assuming people can't read the world language hebrew.

(wouldn't matter still, would still not be able to see the broadcast)

	23-07-2002 17:18									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "No, because they are politicians, not militants." Then attacks on politicians who order attacks are ok (Sharon or Eliezer)?

This is a very tough question you're asking. If I answer yes, then it also means that attacks on Yassir Arafat are legitimate (which is totally against my opinion), as well as attacks against George W. Bush (for ordering the bombing of Afghanistan which produced a much grimmer target/innocent kill ratio than any Israeli campaign has ever produced). If I answer no, then it would raise other difficult questions such as why, or what it is that gives army officers this immunity, and it would also appear like I'm defending my side without considering all the facts.
I'm afraid I simply can't answer your question.

	23-07-2002 17:24									#25
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"If I answer yes, then it also means that attacks on Yassir Arafat are legitimate (which is totally against my opinion)"

Good point. As for the rest I'm unsure what to make of assassinations of (real or suspected) terrorist leaders. But accepting civilian casualties in this situation is murder.

	23-07-2002 17:29									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I wouldn't call this a terrorist attack. Terrorist attacks are meant to strike fear and terror into the hearts of civilians, while this operation was not meant to do so. Though you could argue that Israeli air strikes do strike terror in the hearts of Palestinians, this is not the real goal of those missions.

I disagree. It was a 'terror attack' because it was 'intended to strike fear and terror into the hearts of civilians'. I think the Israeli government has recently embarked apon a programme designed to do just that. For example, the idea of arresting the families of suicide bombers is meant to scare Palestinian civilians into helping prevent the suicide bombings. Similarly, the Israelis are demonstrating in this missile strike that it is dangerous to live near a known terrorist, with the hope that the Palestinian civilians will not back Hamas out of fear for their own lives.

Admittedly, this was not the only reason for the strike - they wanted to kill the terrorist leader - but it is pretty obvious that they knew civilians would die too. Saying it is not an act of terror because there was an additional motivation is not valid, since one would them be implying that the attacks on the WTC on 11th September were not terror attacks (they had the additional affect of partially collapsing the US economy).

	23-07-2002 17:42									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Oh and no, nothing egocentric about assuming people can't read the world language hebrew.

Hey hey, take it easy, I was just being cynical.
What I meant was that I forgot that these broadcasts are in Hebrew. Well, not really forgot, just didn't pay much attention to that fact when posting that other message. I didn't really think that everyone in the world understands Hebrew. I'm not stoopid you know.

	23-07-2002 17:53									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh I disagree. It was a 'terror attack' because it was 'intended to strike fear and terror into the hearts of civilians'. I think the Israeli government has recently embarked apon a programme designed to do just that. For example, the idea of arresting the families of suicide bombers is meant to scare Palestinian civilians into helping prevent the suicide bombings. Similarly, the Israelis are demonstrating in this missile strike that it is dangerous to live near a known terrorist, with the hope that the Palestinian civilians will not back Hamas out of fear for their own lives. Admittedly, this was not the only reason for the strike - they wanted to kill the terrorist leader - but it is pretty obvious that they knew civilians would die too. Saying it is not an act of terror because there was an additional motivation is not valid, since one would them be implying that the attacks on the WTC on 11th September were not terror attacks (they had the additional affect of partially collapsing the US economy).

You are twisting things around. The goal of the operation was not to scare people away from living near known terrorists! That's ridiculous.
I mean, I'm sure the IDF would have preferred that all Palestinian terrorists would have been living in Terror Ave. or Terror Block, but they certainly won't list this in their list of goals. The Palestinians can live wherever they want in their cities. Yes, some may prefer not to move into a certain neighborhood because they know one of the apartments belongs to a terrorist leader or is a Hamas safehouse etc', but this is only an unwelcome byproduct of IDF's operations, not an intentional goal.
As for arresting the families of suicide bombers or demolishing their house (a proposal which was dropped btw, after the Israeli high court of justice strongly opposed it), it is a deterrent, and it is not aimed at Palestinians in general but at the families of suicide bombers who often know about their son's intentions (and therefore are associates of murder) and often strongly support it (I've seen videos of a Palestinian mother kissing her son which was about to go out to perform a suicide bombing and saying that she whishes he would kill as many Israelis as possible).
According to the same logic you could also say that if the US declares that anyone who is caught trying to cross the border of the US and is identified as a terrorist will be sent to prison is also an act of terror because it'll 'strike fear in the hearts of civilians' (which also happen to be carrying a bomb in their suitcase or trenchcoat) and make them think twice about entering the USA in fear of being sent to prison.

	23-07-2002 17:56									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Roland As for the rest I'm unsure what to make of assassinations of (real or suspected) terrorist leaders.

If America managed to assassinate Osama Bin-Laden, would you say that you are unsure what to make of it? Or have I completely missed your point?

Edit: added quote.

	23-07-2002 17:58									#30
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There's also mothers of suicide bombers that claims they didn't have a clue that their son was about to blow themselves to pieces at some bus-stop.

Good it was dropped, the Israeli goverment is conducting too many forms of collective punishment as it is on occupied grounds.