23-07-2002 17:59									#31
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

"If America managed to assassinate Osama Bin-Laden, would you say that you are unsure what to make of it?"

Depends on the situation.

	23-07-2002 18:00									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Funny...8 children killed in "Israeli terrorism," yet silent on the hundreds of children being terrorized by Palestinian suicide bombers.

	23-07-2002 18:02									#33
	Remove this text

There's nothing silent about this at this site puny settler.

	23-07-2002 18:20									#34
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin There's also mothers of suicide bombers that claims they didn't have a clue that their son was about to blow themselves to pieces at some bus-stop.

Very little, AFAIK. However, if such a mother is arrested she could appeal to the Israeli high court of justice and she would not be arrested if she could prove that there's a reasonable doubt that she knew about her son's intentions.
It's not that hard really, and it has happened before and the families won the appeal.

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Good it was dropped, the Israeli goverment is conducting too many forms of collective punishment as it is on occupied grounds.

Agreed. But AFAIK in most cases the Israeli government conducts these forms of collective punishment only because they are out of options.
Please show some understanding. Curfews are seen by the Israeli side as effective means to stop suicide bombers from carrying out attacks in Israel (they have proven to be effective), though most of the Israeli public does not support long curfews (I think the Israeli public would have objected the acts of its government more strongly if they knew exactly what is going on in major Palestinian cities).

P.S. Keep in mind that if you Palestinians took responsibility for the acts of suicide bombers and made any efforts to stop them (you and I both know that the PA has never arrested anyone in blames of conducting terror against Israel and kept him in prison for a longer period that just a few days) then these acts of collective punishment would not have been necessary and therefore would not have been carried out.

	23-07-2002 18:21									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Roland "If America managed to assassinate Osama Bin-Laden, would you say that you are unsure what to make of it?" Depends on the situation.

In what situations would you condone it and in what situations would you not?
You don't have to make general remarks, I know it's too difficult. Just give a few examples.

	23-07-2002 18:26									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Shiber: Do you really believe that killing the Hamas military leader wa the only motivation for this strike? Don't you think, if this were true, that it would have been more efficienty done? The Israeli military are not that incompetent.

quote: Originally posted by rmsharpe Funny...8 children killed in "Israeli terrorism,"

It is amazing what some sick people find 'funny'.

	23-07-2002 18:27									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm uneasy about state sponsored killing as a matter of principle. So one problem is "how clearly is it established he was behind...". I cannot accept that being delegated into the hands of governments except in the most clear and obvious case. Another is a question of alternatives. And risks/casualties associated.

	23-07-2002 18:39									#38
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Shiber P.S. Keep in mind that if you Palestinians took responsibility for the acts of suicide bombers and made any efforts to stop them [...] then these acts of collective punishment would not have been necessary and therefore would not have been carried out.

'It's your own fault we use collective punishment against you.' Yeah that makes sence...

Obviously the Israeli gov't and the IDF doesn't do this out of sheer joy of threating people like **** but an occupation as well as illegal settlements means they partly have themselves to blame. After all, the terrorists wouldn't have to use collective punishment in the form of terrorist attacks if they didn't think it was "necessary".

The entire issue is under such a huge pile of **** that there's nothing understandable about anything anymore imnsho.

	23-07-2002 18:42									#39
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Shiber: Do you really believe that killing the Hamas military leader wa the only motivation for this strike? Don't you think, if this were true, that it would have been more efficienty done? The Israeli military are not that incompetent.

Are you suggesting that Israel is intentionally terrorizing Palestinian citizens with air strikes? If so, then we have nothing more to discuss.

As for the second part of your question, I've stated in some of my previous posts that I agree this is a very inefficient way of carrying out such an operation and this is why I don't think it was legitimate to use such an air strike that would make so much collateral damage, especially considering the fact that the IDF has proven before that it can be as precise as blowing up a single room by hitting a man sitting in a chair with a cruise missile fired from a helicopter and through a window.
However, neither of us really knows what went on there, since we only have access to information from the papers and the news, while the IDF has access to the best intelligence resources in the world. I can make up tens of reasons why the IDF had to use missiles fired from an airplane rather than a precise attack from a helicopter which would sound much more convincing than your theories, e.g. maybe they were tapping his phone line and realized he was leaving in a few minutes and feared they won't be able to get him later, or perhaps didn't want him to make it to some appointment in time, and they couldn't use a helicopter because it would take it too long to reach its target or preferred to use an F-16 because one was standing by, etc' etc'.

	23-07-2002 18:48									#40
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Roland I'm uneasy about state sponsored killing as a matter of principle. So one problem is "how clearly is it established he was behind...". I cannot accept that being delegated into the hands of governments except in the most clear and obvious case. Another is a question of alternatives. And risks/casualties associated.

Well, I don't know about Bin Laden (AFAIK there's a tape proving that he's behind the operation but it could have been fabricated) but I know the IDF has a lot of evidence that Arafat is sponsoring terror, most of which were recovered in the attack on his headquarters in Ramallah. They could have been fabricated as well, but the Bush administration thinks they're authentic (or at least that's what they say on TV), and even the French aren't openly saying that Arafat is not responsible for terror anymore.
In fact the only people who are claiming that Arafat is not behind terrorism are the Palestinians, but I wouldn't give their integrity too much credit, as these are the same people who smuggle suicide bombers in ambulances and hang people whom they least suspect were involved in aiding Israeli intelligence in city squares, or tear up their bodies with their bear hands.

	23-07-2002 18:58									#41
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin 'It's your own fault we use collective punishment against you.' Yeah that makes sence... Obviously the Israeli gov't and the IDF doesn't do this out of sheer joy of threating people like **** but an occupation as well as illegal settlements means they partly have themselves to blame. After all, the terrorists wouldn't have to use collective punishment in the form of terrorist attacks if they didn't think it was "necessary".

I didn't mean it that way. The Palestinians carry a lot of responsibility to the current situation IMHO, which is why I said that if the PA arrested terrorist leaders themselves there would be no need for curfews or for air strikes, but so do Israeli leaders such as Netanyahu (which is responsible to most of what has happened IMHO) and Sharon.

As for the settlements and the settlers, I strongly object them because:

A. What they're doing is undemocratic. By building a settlement they affect the fate of all the people of Israel, what with the fact that most people don't support their actions.
B. They have no respect for the rule of law. They don't care the state has made it illegal to build new settlements. Whenever the IDF evacuates a settlement, they build a new one, often in the same place as the evacuated one.

P.S. I also support evacuating current settlements. As for questions such as which or how many, these are issues that cannot be dealt with without maps and accurate data, so I'd leave those to the politicians and the negotiators (meaning I'd vote for left-wing politicians and then hope they evacuate as many settlements as they can).

quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin The entire issue is under such a huge pile of **** that there's nothing understandable about anything anymore imnsho.

Agreed.

P.S. Do you know of a game called The Settlers? It is one of the best real time management games in the history of computer games, and it has recently been released in its 4th gold edition. It has nothing to do with the Mideast and the conflict btw.

	23-07-2002 19:35									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh It is amazing what some sick people find 'funny'.

I didn't mean "ha-ha" funny, I meant that it is ironic.

	23-07-2002 19:59									#43
	Inflate your Upload Space

Israel shows once again that it doesn't care one hoot about the lives of innocent Palestinians

Ariel Sharon, War Crim Extraordinaire thinks that a military operation resulting in at least 93.3% CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, of which TWO THIRDS WERE CHILDREN!!! is a "great success"...

Just when I think this butcher has sunk to his lowest depravity

Gideon Meir called it a "precise Israeli air strike against a known terrorist."

Precise? PRECISE? That means either they don't care about happening to massacre at least 9 children to get one man OR THEY KNEW they were going to kill innocent civilians!

Actually I think it's the latter because Gideon 'Murderer' Meir goes on to say:

"It is unfortunate that during war innocent people are being killed. Here the problem is that the Palestinian terrorists are hiding and using the civilian population as a human shield. They are hiding behind these women and children."

So, he knows this and they do it anyway! Then these evil butchers even have the temerity to blame the terrorists for the civilians deaths by putting them in harm's way!!! INCREDIBLE!

The Israeli leadership is rotten to the core - it is EVIL!

The only different between the deaths of Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians is the method of delivery!

I remember a few threads back, Siro saying that as many as 20-30% of Palestinian deaths are actually admitted by the IDF as being accidental (of course it's far more!). Given the fact that Israel has killed roughly three times as many Palestinians as vice versa that means that the IDF has killed almost as many Palestinians accidentally as the Palestinians have on purpose!!!

Who are the REAL terrorists here? Who came and stole who's land? Who ethnically cleansed almost an entire nation? And who is STILL systematically stealing land to expand their illegal settlements?

I see that Sharon has his little b*tch Bush wrapped firmly round his little finger - here is one of the single worst Israeli atrocities of this Intifada and all Bushb*tch has to say is: "heavy handed" action which "does not contribute to peace"

No sh*t Sherlock!!!

All I say is Remember the Liberty - indeed, remember the World Trade Centre!

	23-07-2002 20:16									#44
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Israel shows once again that it doesn't care one hoot about the lives of innocent Palestinians Ariel Sharon, War Crim Extraordinaire thinks that a military operation resulting in at least 93.3% CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, of which TWO THIRDS WERE CHILDREN!!! is a "great success"... Just when I think this butcher has sunk to his lowest depravity Gideon Meir called it a "precise Israeli air strike against a known terrorist." Precise? PRECISE? That means either they don't care about happening to massacre at least 9 children to get one man OR THEY KNEW they were going to kill innocent civilians! Actually I think it's the latter because Gideon 'Murderer' Meir goes on to say: "It is unfortunate that during war innocent people are being killed. Here the problem is that the Palestinian terrorists are hiding and using the civilian population as a human shield. They are hiding behind these women and children." So, he knows this and they do it anyway! Then these evil butchers even have the temerity to blame the terrorists for the civilians deaths by putting them in harm's way!!! INCREDIBLE! The Israeli leadership is rotten to the core - it is EVIL! The only different between the deaths of Israeli civilians and Palestinian civilians is the method of delivery! I remember a few threads back, Siro saying that as many as 20-30% of Palestinian deaths are actually admitted by the IDF as being accidental (of course it's far more!). Given the fact that Israel has killed roughly three times as many Palestinians as vice versa that means that the IDF has killed almost as many Palestinians accidentally as the Palestinians have on purpose!!! Who are the REAL terrorists here? Who came and stole who's land? Who ethnically cleansed almost an entire nation? And who is STILL systematically stealing land to expand their illegal settlements? I see that Sharon has his little b*tch Bush wrapped firmly round his little finger - here is one of the single worst Israeli atrocities of this Intifada and all Bushb*tch has to say is: "heavy handed" action which "does not contribute to peace" No sh*t Sherlock!!! All I say is Remember the Liberty - indeed, remember the World Trade Centre!

Please read this entire thread. Please.

	23-07-2002 20:21									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey mobius

I see you are still trying to gain friends by acting dumb. I don't see how it works, but I guess you're the master.

quote: It is amazing what some sick people find 'funny'

Oh now you're just trolling.
It was so obvious he was cynical you could have hanged a sign saying "if i tell you it's cynical it'd be redundant" on it.

	23-07-2002 20:26									#46
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Roland "If I answer yes, then it also means that attacks on Yassir Arafat are legitimate (which is totally against my opinion)" Good point. As for the rest I'm unsure what to make of assassinations of (real or suspected) terrorist leaders. But accepting civilian casualties in this situation is murder.

Roland, I am glad you now understand why we declare war against you in WWI.

	23-07-2002 20:28									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Shiber - meet Mobius.

He loves attention and special effects like bold italics and smilies.

He never reads anything, often not even the things he posts (he likes to post long quotes).

He usually posts a single post full of exclamnation marks and bolded print and then leaves until the next thread.

I was stunned by his behvaiour until one day, on a thread about people's social life, he said that he was very smart and had no friends, so he decided to become dumber and since then his social life is great.

It appears he thinks it's working.

He is very popular in bars as he's even a greater laugh when drunk

	23-07-2002 20:31									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

EDIT: I got confused.

Rogan - aren't you an englishman which lives in germany?

And shiber - ecthelion is a nice german, slightly older than me. He loves to play wit ya.

	23-07-2002 20:33									#49
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ned Roland, I am glad you now understand why we declare war against you in WWI.

You declared war against Roland in WWI?

I hadn't realised he was that old....

	23-07-2002 20:33									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Shiber - GET ICQ GOD DAMN IT!

Yeah, I know you're an elite ultra hax0r and that there are alot of holes on ICQ. So friggin what? You can fry the script kiddy to hell if he touches you.

Plus you can use trillian or odigo or any other israeli made thing (which Israel may or may not be bugging )

	23-07-2002 20:36									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

BTW I think Roland is Austrian (and living in Austria) ....

	23-07-2002 20:38									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I would almost make a bet about that. (If I made bet)

	23-07-2002 20:43									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Shiber - meet Mobius. He loves attention and special effects like bold italics and smilies. He never reads anything, often not even the things he posts (he likes to post long quotes). He usually posts a single post full of exclamnation marks and bolded print and then leaves until the next thread.

That's right, attack the person when you can't bullsh*t your way out of something - I'm still waiting for your answer on

I remember a few threads back, Siro saying that as many as 20-30% of Palestinian deaths are actually admitted by the IDF as being accidental (of course it's far more!). Given the fact that Israel has killed roughly three times as many Palestinians as vice versa that means that the IDF has killed almost as many Palestinians accidentally as the Palestinians have on purpose!!!

I take it that by not refuting every one of my points with the usual painstaking monotony that you usually do, you actually have nothing to say. Seems like lately even the greatest Israeli Apologist on Apolyton finally realises he doesn't have a leg to stand on...

So, are you in agreement with Sharon the Child Killer ove the 'great success' of this attack?

quote: I was stunned by his behvaiour until one day, on a thread about people's social life, he said that he was very smart and had no friends, so he decided to become dumber and since then his social life is great. It appears he thinks it's working.

Oh, Ho Ho, twist what I said out of context why don't you - you really are desperately scrambling for scraps if you have to bring something like that up...

Say, wasn't that the same thread in which you were lamenting over the fact that you couldn't get a girlfriend because girls think you're a wierd, skinny geek who can't relate to people... Don't throw stones in glass houses my geeky friend!

quote: He is very popular in bars as he's even a greater laugh when drunk

One of Humankind's greatest strengths is it's ability to adapt - I adapted to my situation, while seems to me from the sheer amount of time you spend on Apolyton that you're still a sad loner - who is the dumb person now? Quite sad really, poor Siro...

	23-07-2002 20:59									#54
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh You declared war against Roland in WWI? I hadn't realised he was that old....

No, Siro, in another thread, some of our German and Austrian friends could not admit that sinking the Lusitania and then declaring unlimited submarine warfare had anything to do with our declaration of war on Germany and Austria. We were reminded that the Lusitania was a legitimate target and that the civilians took the risk, etc.

	23-07-2002 21:16									#55
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS I'm still waiting for your answer on

You're gonna have to wait a long time. You are obviously desperate for someone to talk back to you, so let me break it to you: I won't be one of them. You don't seem like a very fun person. One of the things that convinced me of this was that after everything I said in the 3 pages of this thread and the other 3 pages of the thread named 'Acceptable Losses' you still think I condone this action. Oh wait, I forgot - you probably skipped through all my messages.
So to sum up, I'm not going to play your game. However if anyone else ever makes any of your arguments I'd be happy to answer them to him/her.

As for attacking the person instead of the argument, it's wrong according to the rules of proper debate, but you have to admit it's much, much more fun. Don't you think so my emoticon-loving friend?

	23-07-2002 21:22									#56
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Israel just paid a huge political price for a successful military operation.

But that Hamas leader is really smart in surrounding himself with human shields. Israelis couldn't kill him without paying a price.

	23-07-2002 22:10									#57
	Tired of ads?

quote: some of our German and Austrian friends could not admit that sinking the Lusitania and then declaring unlimited submarine warfare had anything to do with our declaration of war on Germany and Austria.

Um... the Lusitania was carried war munitions, therefor making it a valid target.

	23-07-2002 22:38									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

[cynic mode]
Have anyone considered the possibility that the killed children are terrorists, or terrorists in training?
[/cynic mode]

	23-07-2002 23:16									#59
	Remove this text

Imran, It was. But the Germans also knew that sinking it would kill a lot of innocent civilians. Yet they did it anyway.

	24-07-2002 00:02									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Al'Kimiya [cynic mode] Have anyone considered the possibility that the killed children are terrorists, or terrorists in training? [/cynic mode]

So what? Every Palestinian baby is a potential terrorist, considering the propaganda and brainwashing they expose from birth. That doesn't make it more justified to kill them, not until there's proof they're actually involved in any terrorist acts anyway.
Or have I completely missed your point?