02-08-2002 08:11									#451
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu We didn't join the nazis. If we would have, we would have sent troops to fight with the nazis like the hungarians and italians did. To avoid being invaded we sold steel instead. Do you really think greece would have done anything else?

It did.

	02-08-2002 08:13									#452
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I dont agree with Dr. Strangelove.

I dont think the Swedes of today have any guilt.

acually this whole allegded guilt trip of europe towards jews is a hoax in order to justify to the "world" why europe will not tolerate acts of terrorism from either side.

	02-08-2002 08:19									#453
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Wasn't Greece invaded by Italy?

	02-08-2002 08:20									#454
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After refusing to join the Axis.

	02-08-2002 08:25									#455
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Well, the problem here Strangelove is that Sweden didn't do ANYTHING to the jews, so we don't have any guilt.

We elected not to have our own citizens killed in a war we couldn't have won in the best of cases, and would have been catastropic in the worst of cases.

And I still don't know what this argument does in this thread. Open a new thread for it if you think it is worth the effort.

	02-08-2002 08:27									#456
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Paikitis, well, then you didn't have a choice. You didn't join, neither did Sweden. The only difference was that Sweden had a better bargaining position.

	02-08-2002 08:30									#457
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We had the choice to say "Yes" instead of "No" and let the italians and the germans use greek soil for their operations as was the demand of the italians.

About not being able to win anyway, Greece was thought by all that it would certaintly fall under a 6 times larger Italy.

It did not. and yes Italians are said to suck at war but they were still 6 times larger.


So sometimes things that are hopeless are not always so.

	02-08-2002 08:36									#458
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Well, the problem here Strangelove is that Sweden didn't do ANYTHING to the jews, so we don't have any guilt. We elected not to have our own citizens killed in a war we couldn't have won in the best of cases, and would have been catastropic in the worst of cases. And I still don't know what this argument does in this thread. Open a new thread for it if you think it is worth the effort.

(1) You stood by and let it happen, even though you were in a unique position to have knowledge about the holocaust.
(2) You supplied the Nazis with the means to make weapons to oppose the would be rescuers of Hitler's victims. In fact, without you Germany would have been unable to make the high grade weapons that enabled them to hold off superior forces for so long.
If you're in downtown Washington and you give a gun to a known gangsta who goes out and shoots a kid you share the guilt in my eyes.
(3) My message is relevant to this thread in so far as you have blamed the Jews for the conflict in Israel because they are occupying land that once belonged to the Palestinians. I'm pointing out that you Europeans actually bear the blame because you drove them out of their European homes. Making guns for the anti-semites gives you a share of the blame.

	02-08-2002 08:42									#459
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Paikitis, I don't see what you are getting at.

Sweden said no to joining the axis, just as greece did. While the axis invaded greece, however, Sweden said that if the axis invaded, we would blow up our mines.

As I said, the only real difference was that Sweden had a better bargaining position. And can you honestly tell me that if Greece had that third option (sell steel to germany or be invaded), they would have said no?

	02-08-2002 08:54									#460
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Strangelove, if a guy in downtown DC points a gun to my head and forces me to give him my knife, and he then uses that knife to kill someone, am I still guilty? Should I risk my life to keep the knife from him?

I don't think so. Yet this is exactly what you ask for.

BTW, what is this unique position you refer too? From what I know, Sweden knew just as much as the allies did about the endlosung.

	02-08-2002 10:26									#461
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CyberGnu provided you are mature enough to grasp this... That is seriously in question....

Your "opinion" does not count....

One more time the break done of the casualties are correct. The guidelines used are the same ones they used to determin the Jenin situation.

Your "opinion" does not count....are you with me here? Your explanation and supposed reality of reason are non-sense. You simply have no idea what you are talking about. Yet you continue to defend it? Admit it stop with the baby routine.

One more time, the break done of the casualties are correct. The guidelines used are the same ones they used to determine the Jenin situation.

Now are you going to tell us all here that not only are they wrong but so is the guidelines on how to determine who is a casualty and who is not?

Pretty bold coming from someone who repeats “shut up” as a defense of their "opinions"....

Now please provide other than pure non-sense a link to show these facts are not true. Your “opinion” simply does not count. Until then you can jump up and down hold your breath continue to act childish do what ever you wish. Until you provide something other than lack of knowledge to back your “opinion” that is all it is.

	02-08-2002 10:43									#462
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blackice, he isn't worth your time.

	02-08-2002 11:05									#463
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BlackIce, how about this:

You show me exactly where in the UN report they break down the casualties in 'violent protestor', 'uniformed non-combatant' or 'propable combatant', and I'll cnceed the entire thread to you, and I will apologize officially.

If you can't show me, however, you admit that you have no idea what you are talking about, and you apologize to me.

How about that? Do we have a deal?



Of course, I expect that one out of two things will happen: You will either respond with name-calling, or you will not respond at all. I harbor no illusions that you are man enough to admit when you are wrong.

	02-08-2002 11:07									#464
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Monk, why would that be? Because he would only achieve mental anguish if he realizes what horrors he is defending, while if he avoids the issue he can stay in blissful ignorance?

	02-08-2002 11:33									#465
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CyberGnu How about this you back up what you claim (opinion) and we move on?

Do not try to babble your way out of this you made the "opinion" back it up. Clearly by asking me to provide you with information you ceed. By that I mean you have no clue do you?

Provide information a link anything to back your claim and we debate. Other than that you ceed.
Enough with the babble prove your claims worthy of debate. At this point this debate has gone well over your head. Obviously you are trying to find a way out.

Provide me with a legal break down of the casualties showing that link to be "propaganda" and you will be right. Until then back peddle, challenge, name call or ignore you will be just an "opinion" with no basis in fact.

I also believe you have done enough research to know I am right. You are not stupid by any means just a little sided on the facts.

Now before you try to take advantage of time zones or personal off line activities, like a life....again. I have a child and time is late here. I may even go fishing this weekend. Produce as much non-sense as you can I will be back. But until you "prove" your "opinion" You really have nothing to say do you?

Last edited by blackice on 02-08-2002 at 11:43

	02-08-2002 11:37									#466
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Monk, why would that be? Because he would only achieve mental anguish if he realizes what horrors he is defending, while if he avoids the issue he can stay in blissful ignorance?

No, because only Tweedledum can understand Tweedledee.

	02-08-2002 12:13									#467
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BlackIce, as I suspected, not man enough.

This is a quote from your post 02-08-2002 00:26:

quote: One more time the break done of the casualties are correct. The guidelines used are the same ones they used to determin the Jenin situation.

I'm just asking you to show exactly where in the jenin report these 'guidelines' appear.

I can give you a hint: They don't. I read the report. There is no breakdown of the casualties in anything but 'fighters' and 'civilians'. And the UN doesn't even make a definite statement, just 'reported as civilians by ...' and 'possible civilians'.


I think it is pretty clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. As I said, it would be nice if you were man enough to admit it, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

	02-08-2002 12:15									#468
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monk:

quote: No, because only Tweedledum can understand Tweedledee.

Alas, you are (although in less extreme terms) comparing Einstein with the village idiot... Just because you cannot understand either of them doesn't mean they both are idiots...

	02-08-2002 12:23									#469
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quote: No, because only Tweedledum can understand Tweedledee.

Hummmm

The Bible is far more complicated than we remember. We know that Cain murdered his brother Abel. It’s simple, right? Cain is bad; Abel is good. And yet, when we examine the Book of Genesis, we may lose our confidence in Cain’s utter wickedness. The brothers’ story begins when God accepts Abel’s sacrifice but rejects Cain’s offering. Interpreting the story in later generations, some of our ancient rabbis attempt to brand Cain as malevolent from the get-go; they charge that he presents God with inferior produce, keeping the best for himself. And yet, the Bible itself levels no such indictment. Cain does not seem to be wicked until he murders Abel, an act that is certainly evil. God punishes Cain severely. Later, though, Cain appears to live his life appropriately, in keeping with God’s expectations. The evidence is that this biblical figure, guilty of the most heinous of all crimes, is not without merit. God appears to give him another chance, and not to treat him as thoroughly evil. If God can see Cain as something other than completely wicked, are we to judge him more harshly? We begin to realize that what seemed black and white may be better characterized as charcoal gray.

	02-08-2002 12:26									#470
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?

	02-08-2002 12:58									#471
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quote: I'm just asking you to show exactly where in the jenin report these 'guidelines' appear. I can give you a hint: They don't. I read the report. There is no breakdown of the casualties in anything but 'fighters' and 'civilians'. And the UN doesn't even make a definite statement, just 'reported as civilians by ...' and 'possible civilians'. I think it is pretty clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. As I said, it would be nice if you were man enough to admit it, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Oh I get it they just guessed... You know Cyber it is obviously well over your head here. You simply do not understand and or are being defiant about the way international law works. One way or the other
"village idiot" seems to fit you yes.
Once you get to understand how they come to these decissions, post again. Right now you need to retire your logic is flawed, baseless and or stuborn.

They guessed right Here comes that word that so aptly descibes ignorance is bliss FLAKE

	02-08-2002 13:21									#472
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu muxec, hate to burst your bubble, but that was the most asinine personal attack I've seen in a long time. Even Chris62 did it better. Question is, are you an idiot, or are you just trying to divert the argument from the pus-filled boil on humanity that is the state of israel?

The truth hurts.

	02-08-2002 13:28									#473
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No BlackIce, they avoid making a definite statement. they state quite clearly that the world will never know what truly happened in Jenin, as impartial observers weren't allowed. Instead they have to rely on reports by human rights organizations, eyewitnesses and goverment announcements. I take it you didn't read the report? Didn;t stop you from referring to it's content about three times in the same post...


Anyway, it is quite clear this is above your head. My expectations have been fulfilled, you have nothing to add and instead resort to name calling.


Maybe if I try really hard I can come up with an argument that is simple enough that even you would understand it...

Look at the pretty choo-choo! Ooooh, good BlackIce! Can BlackIce say 'Dada'?

Hmm, right intellectual level, but alas, not really filled with information. I guess the two requirements are mutually exclusive.

	02-08-2002 13:32									#474
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Oh, I'm sorry muxec, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.

It's not your fault. Well, most likely not. I guess you could have killed of your braincells by sniffing glue, but I think it is much more likley your parents dropped you on your head as a younger child.

	02-08-2002 13:34									#475
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Sweden natist shame Selma Lagerlef.

	02-08-2002 13:38									#476
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CyberGnu, you hate jews and their country due to inferiority complex. But i confirm that i have pity on you.
We are both in sh*t, but you are in deep **** and I am in shallow sh*t.

	02-08-2002 13:38									#477
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?

	02-08-2002 13:39									#478
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Hmm, if they dropped you, was it down a flight of stairs?

Either that or you must have used MASSIVE quantities of glue...

	02-08-2002 13:54									#479
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CyperGnu, if you use glue not according to manual i must to inform police.

	02-08-2002 13:55									#480
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Well, since the last intelligent argument from the pro-israeli side was four pages ago, I guess we can declare the issue settled.

Of course, there is the off chance that Siro is collecting source material for his answer to Kroeze...

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh, I'm killing myself.