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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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Ned,
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But, from this point of view, Jews and Arabs had equal rights to the land in Palestine because both were historical and current occupants of the land. |
Does this mean Sweden have equal rights to Germany with the germans? We owned part os it for a hundred years or so, plus we conquered the whole thing in the 17'th century.
I think this is a spurious argument. The palestinians have lived there for hundreds of years. It is their land. Basing your claim on 2000 year old history is just bull.
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Rogan, we, meaning the liberal Infidel West, have a common enemy with Israel in her fight for survival. |
Nope. It was wrong to let Israel steal the land in the first place, and it is certainly wrong to let Israel carry on with their aggression now.
The liberal west has an obligation to treat the muslim world justly, so the moderate elements in that world has a chance to see that civilization is the better choice. By supporting Israel we only say that might gives right, and effectively kills whatever moral high ground we once had.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Israeli apologists
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I don't like this expression at all. Please refrain from using it in the future.
I don't throw insults at you so I think you should behave likewise.
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
See, now this is where the whole thing breaks down. Somehow Israeli apologists around the world expect us to take the line 'the germans were bad to us therefore we should be allowed to take the palestinians land from them' at face value. that it doesn't make logical or moral sense is as usual not important. Theft is theft, regardless of justification.
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No, I think there is justification for the Jews to have a national home in Israel since our national history and our religion, which are the two things that bond us together as a nation, are based in Israel.
This is just as justified as saying "we own this land, even though we didn't use it at all before the Jews arrived and we sold some of it off to them, and they're the ones who actually turned it out of swamplands and wilderness to successful agricultural settlements and cities".
Other than that, please keep in mind that the Othoman empire took this land by force in the first place, so why shouldn't we do the same?
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Partly lie. The palestinians rejected it, but so did the zionists.
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I researched this again and you turned out to be right. However there was another proposition which proposed much less than half for the Jewish state and you refused it as well.
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
They lobbied quite fiercly |
Wouldn't you have lobbied fiercly if you were in their shoes?
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
especially with the US, |
Are you trying to prove some Jewish-American conspiracy here?
There are many Jews who migrated to America seeking jobs, opportunities and refuge from prosecution in Europe. The Zionist movement were using them as a powerbase, just like any other diplomat would. What are you trying to prove here?
quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
and cried loudly |
This specific choice of words makes the leaders of the Zionist organizations look like babies. Mind you, but they were professors, journalists and other learned men and women.
I suspect you were using these specific words to mock the Zionist movement. If you didn't, please accept my sincere apologies. If you did, then again, please refrain from using insults. I am not impressed by such techniques nor to I believe they contribute to this discussion.
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
I don't like this expression at all. Please refrain from using it in the future.
I don't throw insults at you so I think you should behave likewise.
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You have a point, since you haven't called anyone here anti-semite or nazi. This is pretty much standard fare for the pro-israelis on this site, however... 
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No, I think there is justification for the Jews to have a national home in Israel since our national history and our religion, which are the two things that bond us together as a nation, are based in Israel.
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I'm sorry, but that doesn't matter. Hitler used the same justification to annex sudeten etc. And to use a less inflammatory example, it doesn't give the US right to attack Europe, even though much of their culture comes from the 'old country'.
The palestinians have lived there for hundreds of years. It is not their fault that jewish culture didn't let go of an area they left 2000 years ago.
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This is just as justified as saying "we own this land, even though we didn't use it at all before the Jews arrived and we sold some of it off to them, and they're the ones who actually turned it out of swamplands and wilderness to successful agricultural settlements and cities".
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I'm sorry, but this is just not the case. Take a look at the british white papers. One of them states quite bkuntly that 'there is no more room for jewish settlers without signifcantly lowering the quality of life of the current population. Immigration to palestine should thus be curtailed'.
If there were plently of room, this wouldn't have been the case.
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Other than that, please keep in mind that the Othoman empire took this land by force in the first place, so why shouldn't we do the same?
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Because we are fighting for civilization, not might by arms.
edit: forgot a 0 in '2000'
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Ahh, yes, much like how the bomb in Hiroshima hadn't killed anyone if the entire town had gone to a picnic that day.
AFAIK, the hamas-leaders wife and children WEREN"T home that day, as he lived alone (under an assumed name, no less). The other people killed were people living in the same building.
Well, since an army spokesman is on record saying 'we had to use an F-16 because an apache missile can;t take out a two story building' they obviously knew that there were more than one apartment. |
Israel had to use a 1kg bomb because we needed to assure the kill.
The bomb is very accurate and the blast radius is fairly small considering the size (yes, I researched), which is why we dropped it without fearing that nearby apartment buildings would not be damaged, which eventually turned out to be true, as they weren't. Not substantially anyway.
Those innocents who were killed were people who were living in improvised housings in the spaces between the target's apartment and the nearby apartments (this is where the intelligence failed: it did not alert the decision makers of the existence of such improvised housings). Most of them were killed when remains of the house collapsed on them.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Edit: btw, the target's wife and children *were* at home and they were killed with him (2nd intelligence screw up: their report said they were not at home so the decision makers had no idea of that).
To sum up, the actual officers who made the decision to conduct the operation thought they were going to kill noone but the target, therefore they cannot be blamed for intentionally killing innocent Palestinians or any of that bull.
Last edited by Shiber on 25-07-2002 at 03:29
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
WARNING! Long post ahead (well, duh...).
AFAIK all of this is true, correct me wherever you find I was wrong / deceptive:
- Jews are prosecuted around the world just for the fact that they are jews for nearly two thousand years. They are randomly massacred, they get very little rights if any, they are often disallowed to celebrate their holidays and act according to their traditions and they have to pay protection taxes to the authorities, if they're lucky.
- Roughly a hundred years ago: Jews get sick of it all, decide that it's impossible to fight off antisemity and/or live safely within other nationalities, as Jews are the only nationality which are scattered throughout Europe rather than have a territory of their own and therefore are considered a plague by most Europeans and are mistreated. Jews collect money, mostly from donations as most Jews were very poor that time, buy lands from the Turkish empire (yes, buy, not steal) which the Turks never wanted or had any use for anyway (completely uninhabited lands, most of which were on or near swamplands) and begin to build villages and an agricultural infrastructure.
Jews are treated unfairly by the authorities, which did nothing to prevent attacks from raiders and pirates and charged the Jews for a lot of bribe money to get anywhere. Despite all this, the Jews were persistant, as this was better than returning to Europe.
- Slowly, more Jews migrate to Israel/Palestine mostly due to the harsh conditions they had to endure in Europe and due to Zionist ideology, according to which the Jews must establish a national home of undefined borders in Israel (not for all Jews to live in, but as a place Jews can relate to) so they will cease to be an anomal nation.
Lands are bought from the Turks mostly thanks to donations.
Current tennants see the Jews settling in their precious completely uninhabited swamplands and desertlands and decide they don't like this one bit, so they continually harass Jewish villages and towns and the Jews just barely manage to defend themselves. Wherever Jewish defenses fail, innocent women and children are horribly massacred by the arabs.
- The Brits take over Israel after WWI and soon thereafter limit Jewish immigration to very small numbers. Now illegal immigrants are sent back to Europe back to their oppressors, and after WWII began straight to the hands of the Nazis, which transferred them to work or death camps.
Jews respond by conducting acts of resistance without actually killing Brit soldiers (excluding the Etzel group which did, but they were extremists and were condemned by most of the Jewish population both for using illegitimate measures and for harming the cause, which was to enable Jews to migrate to Israel/Palestine), e.g. sinking patrol ships, blowing up radar devices, derailing slow army supply trains etc' (all of which didn't result in any British casualties, as mentioned above). |
Dear Shiber,
I do not like insults and being rude but this post of you contains so many factual errors that it would be almost impossible to correct them all.
For the moment I will mention only three points:
- Jews were systematically persecuted by Christians and other Europeans, hardly ever by Muslims
- The Orthodox majority of Jews actually living in Palestine opposed a Zionist state
- The Zionist leadership did virtually nothing to save/rescue/help Jews during the Nazi period; on the contrary, on several occasions they collaborated with fascist regimes
"Between 1880 and 1900 more than a million Jews reached the United States. A fraction of that number, most of them with strong religious and nationalist feelings about Eretz Yisrael , immigrated to Palestine."
"The Orthodox Jewish pietists of the Old Yishuv, living on haluka, predominated in Palestine until after World War I, when Zionist-sponsored immigration created a majority of the New Yishuv. Whenever they arrived, Jewish immigrants were not met with an easy life in Palestine. Between 1881 and 1914 as many as 50,000, one of two, left Palestine for the West."
"The ultra-Orthodox community... ..rejected secular Zionism but after the riots of 1920 and 1921 did nothing to oppose it."
"In 1922 a government census recorded some 84,000 Jews in Palestine; that population doubled by 1931, bringing the New Yishuv to 175,000."
(source: T.A.Idinopulos: 'Weathered by Miracles', 1998)
The Jews did not prefer to migrate to Palestine; they were manipulated by the Zionist leadership. Some of them will have had relatives in Palestine, but there were far more Jewish relatives living in the USA.
Nor will a true refugee care about his refuge; his priority is to save his life!
Some points to consider:
- Why should the Muslim world pay for Europe's crimes?
- Are secular, European Jews superior to Arab Orthodox Jews (the Sephardim)?
- What is/was more important: saving Jews or conquering Palestine?
Sincerely,
S.Kroeze
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
I researched this again and you turned out to be right. However there was another proposition which proposed much less than half for the Jewish state and you refused it as well. |
With 'you', do you mean the palestinians? I'm a blond, blue-eyed atheist swede... 
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Are you trying to prove some Jewish-American conspiracy here?
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No conspiracy. The US president was the strongest proponent of the new Israeli state. Which I think makes it even worse that he wouldn;t have the moral courage to suggest a just solution, like give away Arizona or New Mexico to a jewish state.
My point is that your telling of the story makes it seem like the zionists were just trying to do the right thing, while the arabs were screaming fanatics. History shows that the opposite is much more true.
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Wouldn't you have lobbied fiercly if you were in their shoes?
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Perhaps, but that doesn't mean it is right. It would just mean I'd put my own interest over right and wrong.
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This specific choice of words makes the leaders of the Zionist organizations look like babies. Mind you, but they were professors, journalists and other learned men and women.
I suspect you were using these specific words to mock the Zionist movement. If you didn't, please accept my sincere apologies. If you did, then again, please refrain from using insults. I am not impressed by such techniques nor to I believe they contribute to this discussion. |
Not exactly an insult, but not particularly flattering either. Is there a flattering way of saying 'they expressed their dismay over an offer that gave 25%
of the population only 50% of the land'?
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
The bomb is very accurate and the blast radius is fairly small considering the size (yes, I researched), which is why we dropped it without fearing that nearby apartment buildings would not be damaged, which eventually turned out to be true, as they weren't. Not substantially anyway.
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Have you seen pictures from the area? Walls of neighbouring houses are caved in, there is debris everywhere. Over 140 wounded.
Quite frankly, there is no such thing as a 'surgical strike'.
quote:
Those innocents who were killed were people who were living in improvised housings in the spaces between the target's apartment and the nearby apartments (this is where the intelligence failed: it did not alert the decision makers of the existence of such improvised housings). Most of them were killed when remains of the house collapsed on them.
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actually, I was wrong. The house wasn't two stories, it was three. That means at least two more famillies lived there. These are also the civilians that were killed...
From
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/23/i...ast/23GAZA.html
His [the sheiks] wife and three of his daughters were initially reported killed this morning, but hospital officials later said they had survived.
from LAtimes:
Most of the dead were Shehada's neighbors, whose apartments were leveled or badly damaged when a missile from a U.S.-made F-16 hit the building where Shehada was visiting his wife and 14-year-old daughter.
The force of the blast sent shrapnel and broken concrete flying a block or more. Five apartment buildings of two to four stories sustained heavy damage.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Dear Shiber,
I do not like insults and being rude but this post of you contains so many factual errors that it would be almost impossible to correct them all.
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Please try anyway, if you can find the time. I wish to learn from my mistakes, if I've made any.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
[*]Jews were systematically persecuted by Christians and other Europeans, hardly ever by Muslims
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They were persecuted in Israel from a certain point in time, but not in other Othoman states. Which part of my post said they were?
You probably misunderstood something I said.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
[*]The Orthodox majority of Jews actually living in Palestine opposed a Zionist state
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And they still do until this very day, because they say salvation in the form of a Jewish state should come from the heavens, and that god should decide when the Jews shall return to their homeland, not man, so it's pretty irrelevant whether they objected or not, IMHO.
Of course you had no way of knowing this since you never studied the Orthodox people as much as I have. I understand.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
[*]The Zionist leadership did virtually nothing to save/rescue/help Jews during the Nazi period;
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Creating a safe haven for them in Israel and fighting to allow them to migrate to Israel isn't a form of help then?
Other than that, there was nothing they could do. The leaders who lived in Germany, Poland, France etc' soon found themselves in ghettos or camps where there was nothing they could do and the rest (e.g. the one who lived in Britain) had nothing to do (as there was no point in "saving" British Jews, they weren't in danger from the Nazis. I guess if they realized that Britain was about to fall to the Germans they would run away to North America and use some of their money to help poor Jews fund the trip and get green cards).
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
on the contrary, on several occasions they collaborated with fascist regimes[/list]
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That's a very serious blame, but it means nothing without examples.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
"Between 1880 and 1900 more than a million Jews reached the United States. A fraction of that number, most of them with strong religious and nationalist feelings about Eretz Yisrael , immigrated to Palestine."
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Yeah, well I figure it's not very fun leaving the comfort of America and struggle to set up a self-providing society in Israel, where you had high chances to die of plagues or in the hands of pirates.
Many Jews preferred to send donations. Some others rejected the idea of setting up a national home in Israel for several reasons, and it's their right not to accept the idea.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
"The Orthodox Jewish pietists of the Old Yishuv, living on haluka, predominated in Palestine until after World War I, when Zionist-sponsored immigration created a majority of the New Yishuv. Whenever they arrived, Jewish immigrants were not met with an easy life in Palestine. Between 1881 and 1914 as many as 50,000, one of two, left Palestine for the West."
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Yes, many found they couldn't cope with the difficulty of life in the New Yishuv (it was difficult. Remember they were pioneers in swamplands, and many had very little knowledge of agriculture), or they saw their friends die one by one from various plagues.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
"The ultra-Orthodox community... ..rejected secular Zionism but after the riots of 1920 and 1921 did nothing to oppose it."
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I'm sorry, I don't understand how this is relevant or where you're going with that.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
"In 1922 a government census recorded some 84,000 Jews in Palestine; that population doubled by 1931, bringing the New Yishuv to 175,000."
(source: T.A.Idinopulos: 'Weathered by Miracles', 1998)
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Ditto as response to previous comment.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze The Jews did not prefer to migrate to Palestine; they were manipulated by the Zionist leadership. Some of them will have had relatives in Palestine, but there were far more Jewish relatives living in the USA.
Nor will a true refugee care about his refuge; his priority is to save his life!
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Manipulated? What does that mean?
Care to provide examples?
As for the fact that most Jews did not prefer to migrate to Palestine: true, they preferred to migrate to N. America or Australia, where conditions were far better and Jews were rarely persecuted, but keep in mind that some couldn't bear the trip, mostly due to financial reasons. For many of those, Israel was the only solution.
The Zionist movement however made their efforts so that the Jews will have a state of their own if one day they are persecuted again and have nowhere to run.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze Some points to consider:
- Why should the Muslim world pay for Europe's crimes?
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It shouldn't. But they could allow the Jews some national home in Israel since the Jewish common history and religion, the two things that bound them together as a nation, are based there.
I never gave that as a reason for why the Muslim world should give up parts of Palestine. I see now that some of the things I said could have implied that I see things this way, but I don't. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Originally posted by S. Kroeze Are secular, European Jews superior to Arab Orthodox Jews (the Sephardim)?
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Uhh... superior?... kindly explain how this is relevant to the issue. I really don't have a clue why you've mentioned that.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze What is/was more important: saving Jews or conquering Palestine?
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Saving Jews, of course. Does this relate to the part about the Zionist leadership not making efforts to save Jews from the Nazis? In that case I already addressed that part.
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Al'Kimiya
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quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Perhaps you should read some historical study before making such ludicrous statements....
Could you please recommend me one -just one- recent historical study that endorses this incongruous viewpoint? |
Well.. most of the land is desert. I've seen it (well it was about ten years ago). Some areas are densely populated, mostly in the north. In the early 1900s, there were mostly tiny villages here and there and LOTS of space inbetween. Zionists made the land more hospitable, its not propaganda.
And.. off course there are GOOD arabs too, they are just not allowed to prove it.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Have you seen pictures from the area? Walls of neighbouring houses are caved in, there is debris everywhere. Over 140 wounded.
Quite frankly, there is no such thing as a 'surgical strike'.
actually, I was wrong. The house wasn't two stories, it was three. That means at least two more famillies lived there. These are also the civilians that were killed...
From
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/23/i...ast/23GAZA.html
His [the sheiks] wife and three of his daughters were initially reported killed this morning, but hospital officials later said they had survived.
from LAtimes:
Most of the dead were Shehada's neighbors, whose apartments were leveled or badly damaged when a missile from a U.S.-made F-16 hit the building where Shehada was visiting his wife and 14-year-old daughter.
The force of the blast sent shrapnel and broken concrete flying a block or more. Five apartment buildings of two to four stories sustained heavy damage.
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Yes I have seen pictures from that area. How do you know the caved-in walls were of other houses? According to what I saw these could have been the remains of the apt. building where the terrorist leader lived.
As for what pictures a day after are worth, I wouldn't give them too much credit as Palestinians often use dirty tricks such as smuggling arms and suicide bombers in ambulances, adding the names of people who died in car accidents or in crime-related incidents to the list of those killed by Israeli troops and yes, 'altering' the scene.
I saw a PA bulldozer tearing down a wall, possibly to aid recovery efforts, possibly to make the damage look greater.
I don't know what became of the people who were living in the other two stories (I really had no idea there were two other stories). I'll comment on this when I see more information, but right now it's 2:30AM and I feel like going to bed. 
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Dr Strangelove
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It's basically the fault of the Europeans. No one acted to countermand the rising wave of anti-semitism that swept Europe after 1880. Following WW2 the Jews of Europe had the choice between returning to homelands where the hatred fanned by the Nazis still lingered or emigrating to Israel. Many where simply not allowed to return home. Europe has a responsibility to these people which it is not discharging.
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Umm, you do know that the bomb weighed 1000kg, right?
The problem here is that it is not a defense. Yes, a 1000kg bomb might have been needed to kill him, but
A) these assassinations are acts of barbary
B) the army knew very well that civilians would die in the attack but carried on anyway. |
Of course, I meant to write 1ton.
A 1kg bomb would kill a man. In an open field, but not inside a building, of course.
RE: A. Is killing an enemy officer during war an act of barbary? If America killed Bin-Laden, would that be an act of barbary?
There is a war between Israel and the Hamas. This man is responsible to attacks that took the lives of over a hundred Israeli civilians, therefore making him a _legitimate target_.
RE: B. I'm telling you they didn't, but you'll never believe me anyway so there's no point going on.
I'll wait for the army to publish its official report, which always include interviews with people in charge, photos, airshots etc' and then see if I can get a hold of it or parts of it that are not classified and get them over to you.
I truly believed that the army didn't know that this would be the outcome of this attack, and if they did then the people who hid that fact from the political rank and told them this would be a clean operation deserve the same fate as those innocents killed in the attack.
These are my honest thoughts, I'm not trying to cover up for anything. If you think I'm lying then we really should stop this discussion, because if we don't believe each other then what point is there in going on?
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Al'Kimiya
And.. off course there are GOOD arabs too |
I happen to have arab friends, and they're not ape-like life forms nor do I see them as such (this referring to CyberGnu's remarks).
Mind you, but most Israelis are not what you would have called racists. Compared to the Palestinians, we are Mother Theresas. Seriously now, have you ever opened a Palestinian school book? They actually teach which race is superior. Mein Kampf is a best seller in Gaza and Ramallah, btw.
Edit: fixed a typo.
Last edited by Shiber on 25-07-2002 at 04:47
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:21
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Here is just one example of how the Zionist leadership made a conscious decision to oppose the rescue of Jews because in their view the conquest of Palestine was the only truly important issue:
"With the abandonment of the Peel proposals, Zionism ceased to have any real relevance for the Jews of Europe. The British had cut immigration in an effort to placate the Arabs, and only 61,302 Jews were allowed entry to Palestine from 1936 to 1939; the WZO allowed entry to only 17,421 from Germany. However, not even the terrible danger to the Jews of Central Europe, nor their own abandonment by their imperial patron could shake the determination of the leaders of the WZO: under no circumstances was Zionism to be shunted aside in the now frantic scramble to find havens for the desperate Jews. When, after Kristallnacht, the British, in the hope of easing the pressure for increased immigration into Palestine, proposed that thousands of children be admitted directly into Britain, Ben-Gurion was absolutely against the plan, telling a meeting of Labour Zionist leaders on 7 December 1938:
[*]If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany by bringing them over to England, and only half of them by transporting them to Eretz Yisrael, then I would opt for the second alternative. For we must weigh not only the life of these children, but also the history of the People of Israel.[23]
Britain's policy was firmly fixed; there was not the slightest chance of London suddenly allowing any mass immigration into Palestine, yet Ben-Gurion persisted, refusing to contemplate other sanctuaries. On 17 December 1938 he warned the Zionist Executive:
[*]If Jews will have to choose between the refugees, saving Jews from concentration camps, and assisting a national museum in Palestine, mercy will have the upper hand and the whole energy of the people will be channelled into saving Jews from various countries. Zionism will be struck off the agenda not only in world public opinion, in Britain and the United States, but elsewhere in Jewish public opinion. If we allow a separation between the refugee problem and the Palestinian problem, we are risking the existence of Zionism.[23]"
(source: L.Brenner: 'Zionism in the Age of the Dictators',1983)
[23] Yoav Gelber, 'Zionist Policy and the Fate of European Jewry (1939-42)', Yad Vashem Studies, vol. XII, p. 199.
[24] Ari Bobber (ed.), The Other Israel, p. 171.
[*] like the author I use another type to indicate that those were Ben-Gurion's own words
note for Sirotnikov: "Zionism in the Age of the Dictators' is not identical to 'How Israel Was Won' by B.Thomas; it was written by another author and has a different title; nor was it published by Neturei Karta
Why do you consider the opinion of Jews actually living in Palestine irrelevant?
Do you still think that Jews in the Diaspora should elect the Knesset and not the inhabitants of Palestine/Israel?
There are many Irish/Italians who migrated to the USA, becoming American citizens. Yet they do not qualify to vote in their native country, Ireland/Italy.
The Zionists decided to disregard the wishes of Jews living in Palestine, who would have preferred to live in peace. But of course only Europeans can make intelligent decisions, not those obscure Arab Jews living in Palestine!
Last edited by S. Kroeze on 25-07-2002 at 05:08
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Al'Kimiya
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
I happen to have arab friends, and they're not ape-like life forms nor do I see them as such (this referring to CyberGnu's remarks).
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These arab friends, I bet are citizens of Israel, not from the territories. Because if arabs in west bank/gaza have israeli friends they get massacred and hanged for all too see. Unless they manage to keep it a well-kept secret, that is.
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
It's basically the fault of the Europeans. No one acted to countermand the rising wave of anti-semitism that swept Europe after 1880. Following WW2 the Jews of Europe had the choice between returning to homelands where the hatred fanned by the Nazis still lingered or emigrating to Israel. Many where simply not allowed to return home. Europe has a responsibility to these people which it is not discharging. |
What about Dreyfuss?
Here is proof of the 'boundless love' of Americans and Zionists for Jewish refugees; even the survivors of Auschwitz were not allowed to live in a peaceful environment:
"The Anglo-American Committee issued its report on 1 May 1946. With regard to the future government of Palestine, the report was vague, but it urged that 100,000 Jewish immigrants be immediately allowed into the country. It is ironic that the United States government strongly urged the British to allow large-scale immigration into Palestine, but only 4,767 Jewish refugees were permitted to enter the United States in the first eight months of 1946. There were many reasons why the United States permitted so few DPs into the country, not least of which was the apathetic attitue of the American Jewish community leadership to a liberalization of US immigration law.
By 1946 most American Jewish organizations had been converted to Zionism. As such they viewed the immigration of the Jewish DPs to the United States or anywhere else besides Palestine as a diversion from their goal to establish a Jewish state in the Holy Land. The Jewish DPs in their detention camps in Europe were subjected to intense propoganda by Zionist agents. But according to General Frederick Morgan who ran the camps for the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Agency (UNRRA), if the Jewish displaced persons had been allowed to make their own decision, few 'would have gone elsewhere that to the USA.'(51) But the Zionists used the Jewish refugees as propaganda for their cause and as cannonfodder in the struggle to create a Zionist state in Palestine. After the horrors of the Holocaust, these unfortunate survivors deserved a better fate.
During this period, Palestine was suffering as a result of Jewish terrorism perpetrated by the Irgun and Stern Gang, which directed their attacks against British installations. The terrorists hoped to persuade the British, who had 100,000 troops in Palestine, that continued occupation would be too costly. Both the Irgun and the Stern Gang came out of the right wing of the Zionist movement.
(source: M.Palumbo, 'The Palestinian Catastrophe',1987)
note for Sirotnikov: 'The Palestinian Catastrophe' is not identical to 'How Israel Was Won' by B.Thomas; it was written by another author and has a different title; nor was it published by Neturei Karta
A Question:
Did Zionists ever try to combat anti-Semitism, Fascism, Nazism?
Just one quote:
"The Jew is a caricature of a normal, natural human being, both physically and spiritually. As an individual in society he revolts and throws off the harness of social obligations, knows no order nor discipline."
('Our Shomer "Weltanschauung",' Hashomer Hatzair (December 1936), p. 26; originally composed in 1917, republished)
Hashomer Hatzair (Young Watchmen) was a left(!) Zionist youth movement
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:21
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Wow S. Kroeze, I have to admit that I'm way out of your league. I don't know enough of history to even understand most of your arguments or how they relate to the current topic. I am merely a 17 yr. old who likes to hang around in forums (), while you seem to be more learned as well as older than me. When it comes to debating, you are obviously more than just my match.
All I can do is group any of the arguments I could think of to answer back to your arguments in this message. Perhaps the bigger fish, e.g. Siro and others can answer you better.
* Zionists have always believed that founding a Jewish state should be the highest of all goals because ultimately it would save many more lives than it would cost. I'd rather not lay down their arguments to this as I am not learned enough of the Zionist doctrine, so I'll leave that to others to do.
IMHO they shouldn't have used holocaust victims as pawns though. This is wrong.
* If they realized that Ben-Gurion wasn't going to change his mind, why didn't the Brits save those children anyway? Or have they?
* Does it come as a surprise to you that the Americans were more eager to transfer supporting populations to Palestine rather than transfer DPs to America, where most of them would probably join the unemployed?
America's foreign policy has always preferred taking care of its national interests over conducting humanitarian efforts.
* IMHO it's not the fault of the WZO that terrorist groups stepped out of their ranks. Is it World Socialist Movement to blame for creating Fascism just because Musolini stepped out of their ranks?
As long as Zionism wasn't preaching terrorism, the WZO are not responsible for whatever terrorist groups who used the Zionist ideology to justify their actions, unless they were supporting the actions of those groups, which you have to prove.
Anyway, those Jewish terrorists may have believed in Zionism, but they also believed in terrorism which is why I condemn their actions.
* In your opinion, why did the Zionist movement want to create a national home for the Jewish nation in Israel? Surely they weren't doing this for religious reasons. Do you know why then?
According to the Zionist doctrine the main reason for Anti-Semitism is that Jews are an abnormal nation, which is because they don't have a national home. I've read a lot about this argument and the whole issue and I'm sure that so have you, so let's skip over the 'why'.
Anyway, according to this, by working to create a national home for the Jewish nation, the Zionists were in fact combating Anti-Semitism.
If you disagree with that then please judge the ideology, not the people.
* AFAIK, the WZO does combat modern Anti-Semitism today by answering back to public figures that make Anti-Semite remarks and holding cons as well as other activities.
This year's convention of the WZO in Israel carried the slogan 'Zionism is fighting Anti-Semitism' (I don't remember the exact words but it was either that or something very similar to this and in the same spirit).
Edit: fixed a typo.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
What about Dreyfuss?
Here is proof of the 'boundless love' of Americans and Zionists for Jewish refugees; even the survivors of Auschwitz were not allowed to live in a peaceful environment:
"The Anglo-American Committee issued its report on 1 May 1946. With regard to the future government of Palestine, the report was vague, but it urged that 100,000 Jewish immigrants be immediately allowed into the country. It is ironic that the United States government strongly urged the British to allow large-scale immigration into Palestine, but only 4,767 Jewish refugees were permitted to enter the United States in the first eight months of 1946. There were many reasons why the United States permitted so few DPs into the country, not least of which was the apathetic attitue of the American Jewish community leadership to a liberalization of US immigration law.
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The "Displaced Persons Act" of 1948 opened up immigration to the US for about 400,000 Jews.
From 1900 to 1930 the US received 19 million immigrants, 2 million of whom were Jewish. After this humongious bolus of immigrants the US sharply curtailed immigration. Only 500,000 immigrants were permitted to enter the US between 1930 and 1940. One million were allowed to enter between 1940 and 1950. Please note that Jews were given about 40% of this allotment.
How about the Netherlands?
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25-07-2002 02:51
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