25-07-2002 19:48									#91
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by CICSMaster Firstly, I believe that IBM owns the intellectual property that is referred to as RISC 6000 - which is what the G4 is based on. Secondly, Motorola are licensed to produce chips and to adjust the design for specific applications subject to IBM approval. Thirdly, IBM sells a supercomputer based on 256 RISC 6000 chips per box. The chips however are not the same as the chips in the Apple computers. They are engineered to IBM standards for the supercomputer marketplace and are a little bit more expensive. But then again, I could be wrong.

Ugh... great... I'd heard somebody quip IBM supercomputers were just "big Macintoshes" but I didn't know it was that serious.

*sighs* Apple really has made some hurdles for themselves to get speed higher, haven't they?

	25-07-2002 21:46									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

--"and would definitely help Intel with getting x86 up to acceptable levels."

When are they planning to move to the .10 process? I don't think it's going to be anywhere near soon enough to compete with Hammer.

Intel has also stated they aren't really targeting the desktop market with IA-64 (at least for now). They're going to have even bigger problems breaking into the market they want to, the enterprise server market. Due to the nature of the market, they won't get a serious hearing for another three to five years, regardless of their technology, and they'll still have the same lack of software problem, only x86 emulation won't help here.
It would be nice to have the emulation for workstation level stuff, but I'm not seeing any serious penetration into the workstation market soon either.

--"The performance hit you see with SMT enabled is because those programs simply aren't designed to use it properly. "

I love the way you say that without knowing what we're running.
You see, I'm working testing network gear. We're running server stuff here. Our Xeons are all dual or quad processor, so yes, our software is designed for multiprocessing. SMT doesn't improve most of it.

--"The 20-stage pipeline of the Pentium 4 means that at any clock, certain parts of the chip are more likely to be idle than others"

I don't think you understand what pipelining is doing.

--"Ah, so you're saying, in other words, that you're super paranoid"

I've been reading up on various compsec stuff as a hobby. It's interesting stuff.
No, I'm not particularly worried about BlueTooth wardriving. BlueTooth doesn't have much of a range, from what I recall. That doesn't mean there aren't other problems with it, notably interference problems. Garbled networking can lead to some really interesting problems, so I don't really want to see what'll happen with all the sorts of things BlueTooth is supposed to be on.

--"It's just like any other crime, make yourself uninteresting to the criminal, and you'll be fine."

I don't think you understand the nature of the modern script kiddie. A new machine on the internet will likely be scanned within minutes. The Honeynet project has seen a new server compromised in less than half an hour.
There are all sorts of automated tools out there. Script kiddies don't look for challenges or interesting things, and they don't really care what they're compromising. They just run bulk scans for vulnerabilities to chalk up bragging rights or set up large groups of zombies for DDoS attack.
Anything connecting to the Internet needs to be worried about security, and I just wish we could get software makers to understand this.

--"Right... like I'm to believe that you haven't had any computer problems with whatever box you're using."

It's a homebuilt Athlon XP machine. The only problems I've had it with it have been Netscape deciding to delete my bookmarks. No biggie, they're backed up on CD, and I'm switching anyway.

--"It all depends on what you're wanting to do."

Yes, I've said that several times in here

For me, I do need the extra speed. I do some video editing, the occassional game, some compiling. All stuff that likes the extra power. If I was just web browsing and running office apps I wouldn't have built this machine.
Video Editing, on the other hand... if I can save ten minutes per encoding session on a video file, that's worth the machine.
Of course, the whole machine cost me less than a grand, with 512 MB of DDR SDRAM, DVD, CDRW, 180 gigs of hard drive, decent video, and great audio. I should go to Apple's site and see what that money would buy me. This whole price/performance area is important to me, and is where Apple tends to fail miserably.

Edit:


Just visited the Apple online store. Sadly, the cheapest PowerMac is $1600. And that's for 256 MB SDR RAM, 40 gig HD, and no DVD. Oddly enough, it also doesn't mention network, but I'll go ahead and assume a 10/100 integrated.
The iMacs might be closer, but I don't remember how much I paid for my monitor.

As far as software, that doesn't need to be a huge cost. There are all sorts of freeware/gpl/etc software apps these days that work fine. I use GIMP instead of Paintshop, for instance, along with programs like Virtual Dub. This is another one of those depends areas. What do you use?

--"Thirdly, IBM sells a supercomputer based on 256 RISC 6000 chips per box."

You wouldn't happen to have a model number for that, would you? AFAIK, IBM doesn't sell any "supercomputers" at all. They do sell mainframes and midframes and high-end servers, but not "supercomputers".
And if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, the Power4 chips, then you're a bit mistaken. They are a far cry from a basic RISC 6000 (starting with four cores on a die).

Wraith
"Any human error on a mirrored drive will only make that mistake more efficient"
-- Curtins Preston ("Unix backup and recovery")

Last edited by Wraith on 25-07-2002 at 21:54

	25-07-2002 21:58									#93
	Increase Your PM Length

IBM does sell supercomputers. Last I read they sold something called the ASCI White to Los Alamos.

	25-07-2002 22:27									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Wraith When are they planning to move to the .10 process? I don't think it's going to be anywhere near soon enough to compete with Hammer.

Their roadmaps place it in late 2003. It's not going to be for competition with Hammer. Hammer and IA-64 are in different markets until about 2004-2005, when Intel was expected to bring IA-64 to the desktop (it's going in workstations already).

quote: I love the way you say that without knowing what we're running. You see, I'm working testing network gear. We're running server stuff here. Our Xeons are all dual or quad processor, so yes, our software is designed for multiprocessing. SMT doesn't improve most of it.

I was assuming you were talking about the benchmarks that have been floating around on the web. SMT isn't a magical technology, it needs to be harnessed properly to get a performance boost. If all an app is doing is constant use of the ALU (databases), it won't see much performance, if any, simply because the ALU is tied up already and having it multithreaded wouldn't help. Apps with mixed threads (one heavily using the ALU, one heavily using the FPU), this is where SMT shines.

quote: I don't think you understand what pipelining is doing.

Feel free to expand on that, but I'll provide some relevant quotes from other sites in the meantime:
http://www.slcentral.com/articles/0...ding/page10.php

quote: Due to the already-long pipeline of the Pentium 4 (20 stages), the reduced number of registers required would also mean that, depending upon the number of threads supported by the processor, it might be possible for the Pentium 4 architecture to remain "as is" without adding the two additional stages to the pipeline. This would bode well, as branch mispredicts already hurt the Pentium 4's performance. ... By using a Trace Cache, the Pentium 4 architecture, in a sense, makes quasi-threads where they are simply the path of execution the last time they were run. If different areas of the trace cache could be scanned for "threads," then a DMT processor might make use of the trace cache for the formation of threads.

Saying the P4 wasn't designed for SMT isn't exactly true, considering that the core debuted with SMT in the first place and has many of the traits that benefit from SMT, which Athlon/P3 don't have.

	25-07-2002 23:15									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

A purty picture to help demonstrate:

Athlons and Pentium IIIs and 4s (Not P4 Xeons) are "A" in that diagram, as is AMD's upcoming Clawhammer chip. Once used properly, SMT allows far more efficient use of the CPU. Some applications are much better suited for this than others.


Where A is the typical Athlon/Clawhammer/Pentium III/4, and B is the P4 Xeon and P5. Except the P4 Xeon only supports 2 threads (example shows 4), and it's not known how many the P5 will support.

A somewhat less technical article is here: http://www.anandtech.com/cpu/showdoc.html?i=1576&p=1

And I'm off to the airport now. Be back in a few days.

Last edited by Asher on 25-07-2002 at 23:27

	26-07-2002 01:47									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

--" Last I read they sold something called the ASCI White to Los Alamos."

That's a cluster, which isn't exactly what I would classify as a supercomputer. YMMV, of course.

--" Apps with mixed threads (one heavily using the ALU, one heavily using the FPU)"

And that's the question... how many apps are actually like this? From what I've seen, most people will get better value out of simply going dual or buying a higher end single processor.

--"Feel free to expand on that, but I'll provide some relevant quotes from other sites in the meantime"

That article is saying that the P4 pipeline is already quite long, so they don't need to add yet more stages to it. Pipeline stages don't have much to do with keepng the execution units full (two of the P4 pipeline stages are dedicated to nothing more than moving information from one stage to another).
Here's a description of the P4 pipeline.

--"Saying the P4 wasn't designed for SMT isn't exactly true"

The problem is that the P4 that was released is not the P4 as it was originally concieved. The original design had to be scaled back for economic reasons.

On the original subject, I found this articlethis article[/url].

Wraith
Who me? I just wander from room to room

	26-07-2002 01:53									#97
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

FLAMEFLASH:

In response to that message, flameflash you have failed to prove anything to me. And I will not be moved. I was not trying to argue whether you should change but I was arguing which was the better, more stable and cheaper option, the PC of course.

As there is another discussion going on here I don't appreciate you blabbering off, posting a bunch of irrevelant crap to attempt to make your post look good. None of it was revelant.

You people start going off about this and that... and this specific crap, and this other... why don't you face the tests and accept the facts.

	26-07-2002 02:34									#98
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Wraith --"Ah, so you're saying, in other words, that you're super paranoid" I've been reading up on various compsec stuff as a hobby. It's interesting stuff. No, I'm not particularly worried about BlueTooth wardriving. BlueTooth doesn't have much of a range, from what I recall. That doesn't mean there aren't other problems with it, notably interference problems. Garbled networking can lead to some really interesting problems, so I don't really want to see what'll happen with all the sorts of things BlueTooth is supposed to be on.

*nods* That helps me understand where you're coming from, sorry for calling you paranoid.

quote: --"It's just like any other crime, make yourself uninteresting to the criminal, and you'll be fine." I don't think you understand the nature of the modern script kiddie. A new machine on the internet will likely be scanned within minutes. The Honeynet project has seen a new server compromised in less than half an hour. There are all sorts of automated tools out there. Script kiddies don't look for challenges or interesting things, and they don't really care what they're compromising. They just run bulk scans for vulnerabilities to chalk up bragging rights or set up large groups of zombies for DDoS attack. Anything connecting to the Internet needs to be worried about security, and I just wish we could get software makers to understand this.

Likewise, I'll retract my paranoid statement... however, that does make me a lot more paranoid about the 'Net.

Do script kiddies just indiscriminatly hit any computer on the 'Net? I'd think those of us poor saps who are still stuck on dail-up would be safer... is it something to do with a trojan, or what? Just wondering if Macs are as vunerable to it as PCs.

quote: --"Right... like I'm to believe that you haven't had any computer problems with whatever box you're using." It's a homebuilt Athlon XP machine. The only problems I've had it with it have been Netscape deciding to delete my bookmarks. No biggie, they're backed up on CD, and I'm switching anyway.

Still a problem... However, I've never liked Netscrape... I'm just not surprised. I suppose I'm impressed with the fact that you have your bookmarks backed up on CD. Do you use some kind of softare that helps in the back-up process?

quote: --"It all depends on what you're wanting to do." Yes, I've said that several times in here For me, I do need the extra speed. I do some video editing, the occassional game, some compiling. All stuff that likes the extra power. If I was just web browsing and running office apps I wouldn't have built this machine. Video Editing, on the other hand... if I can save ten minutes per encoding session on a video file, that's worth the machine. Of course, the whole machine cost me less than a grand, with 512 MB of DDR SDRAM, DVD, CDRW, 180 gigs of hard drive, decent video, and great audio. I should go to Apple's site and see what that money would buy me. This whole price/performance area is important to me, and is where Apple tends to fail miserably.

Finally! Somebody else who is actually reasonable! Heh... my cousin with the XP box will be annoyed that he could have done it for under a grand... but then it looks like he's not as informed either... otherwise he wouldn't have as many hardware/OS problems.

quote: Edit: Just visited the Apple online store. Sadly, the cheapest PowerMac is $1600. And that's for 256 MB SDR RAM, 40 gig HD, and no DVD. Oddly enough, it also doesn't mention network, but I'll go ahead and assume a 10/100 integrated. The iMacs might be closer, but I don't remember how much I paid for my monitor.

*nods* I'm thinking an iBook these days is actually the best product Apple has as far as cost and what you get are concerned. But that's just IMHO. Though call me eccentric if you want, I still drool at their high-end dual processor system. If I had a lot of money, I'd still go with it... just like the OS.

quote: As far as software, that doesn't need to be a huge cost. There are all sorts of freeware/gpl/etc software apps these days that work fine. I use GIMP instead of Paintshop, for instance, along with programs like Virtual Dub. This is another one of those depends areas. What do you use?

Are all those open-source programs fully compatible with others, though? Take CtP for example... I have it on my Mac... along with most of the other Civ games... if I were to get a new computer, this one I'm using now I'd probably set up for my mother (it's much better than her current one.) That means that I have to either try and find prog copies of or almost like all my games (I've got some classics that I still play rather often... Lode Runner, for instance.)
If you could actually help this little Mac user convert most of his things to Windows I would actually think more seriously of switching... part of my reasons for not has always been new software... but with OS X I'm going to have to get a lot of new software anyway, so I'm going to have to switch to a new OS pretty soon (either XP or X).

Now for your PhotoShop and GoLive stuff I suppose there are open-source substitutes (those are the main-stream programs I use most often besides MS Word.)

[Hey, look Fez! I'm actually admitting to using an MS product! Unlike what you accused me of earlier, I don't hate the company, they makes some good things.]

quote: Fez tried to say something here... FLAMEFLASH: In response to that message, flameflash you have failed to prove anything to me. And I will not be moved. I was not trying to argue whether you should change but I was arguing which was the better, more stable and cheaper option, the PC of course.

Of course I have... if I had to proved anything to you you would have then proved me wrong because then you wouldn't be an egoist.

quote: As there is another discussion going on here I don't appreciate you blabbering off, posting a bunch of irrevelant crap to attempt to make your post look good. None of it was revelant.

Sounds like you need to brush up on your philosphy... that wasn't blabbering, I was trying to help you see your egoist ways... it obviously didn't work.

quote: You people start going off about this and that... and this specific crap, and this other... why don't you face the tests and accept the facts.

"You people"? Who? I'm facing the "facts" and "tests" that Asher and Wraith hand me... because what they're handing me are "facts" and "tests" as opposed to opinions.

To help you out, an opinion is something that cannot be proven (either correct or incorrect) while a "fact" is something that can be.

Me saying I have brown eyes is a fact... even if in truth I have green/blue eyes... the "fact" I have brown is because that is something that can be proven/disproven.

Your "fact" that "Apple just sucks" isn't a fact at all, and that's what I've been trying to do... get you to show me some "facts" to back up that statement, instead of saying that I'm blabbering, etc. and basically writing off my entire post. If you haven't noticed, this thread started out just to let people know about a specific article in a magazine, so really, we're all off topic after Asher pointed out how off-base trusting that specific article really was. So if I'm blabbering, by your logic, so is Wraith, Asher, and yourself...

	26-07-2002 03:36									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

--"sorry for calling you paranoid. "

Oh, but I am paranoid. I'm just reasonable about it.

--"Do script kiddies just indiscriminatly hit any computer on the 'Net?"

Basically, yes. I used to work at a datacenter, and we did some pretty decent monitoring. We caught all sorts of people scanning our network blocks all the time, from all over the world.
Lots of AOL accounts, of course....

Dial-up may be a bit safer, if only because the kiddies will be more likely to target the IP blocks of broadband providers. Hosts on broadband are much more useful for DDoS. However, most broadbrand providers also have dial-up (and vice versa), so I wouldn't count on this. Dial-up accounts aren't active as much, however, which is a bigger help. Still not at all a sure thing, but safer than the always-on nature of broadband.

At the least you should be running something like Zone Alarm, even on a dial-up account.
Trojans are not a problem as long as you're aware of where your software is coming from and you don't open any file mailed to you. What needs to be watched for more are viruses and exploits. The former means turning off things like Active X and running a virus scanner, the latter means keeping your software patched. However, you can never be truely safe from the latter, because the good guys aren't the only ones looking for exploits. Macs are probably safer than Windows PC in this regard simply on the numbers; less Macs around, less people looking for exploits.

--"Do you use some kind of softare that helps in the back-up process?"

Ahead Nero... in other words, not really. It's just that CD blanks are cheap, my CD writer is fast (x24), and I don't change bookmarks that often. I've done enough desktop and server support work to be used to regular backups, and copying all my docs, dbs, etc, to CD once in a while is no big deal.

--"my cousin with the XP box will be annoyed that he could have done it for under a grand"

The wonders of online shopping

--"I'm thinking an iBook these days is actually the best product Apple has as far as cost and what you get are concerned. "

Just from my glance at their page, that's probably the case. I'd have to check into a lot more things (like battery life comparisons) before I'd think of getting one, but any laptop I'd have would likely be mostly used for word processing and e-mail type apps (along with playing DVDs, which seems to be pretty good at draining batteries).

--"Are all those open-source programs fully compatible with others, though?"

Converting your existing game library would probably be your biggest problem. I don't keep up with games that much any more, so I can't say what all is available (especially the classic ones), or how much it'd cost.

--"Now for your PhotoShop and GoLive stuff I suppose there are open-source substitutes"

Well, for Photoshop you could use The GIMP. It's quite feature rich. I don't do anything fancy, so I can't really comment on how it compares to Photoshop.
GoLive is an HTML editor, right? Personally I use DreamWeaver (I run a couple web sites), but that may be too pricey for you. Then again, you've bought an Adobe pro web editor... Anyway, this is one area I haven't found a good open source substitute yet. I haven't looked for one for a few months, though; I should check it out this weekend.

Wraith
"Unix is easy to use, but difficult to learn."
-- Harley Hahn ("The Unix Companion")

	26-07-2002 03:43									#100
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Flame flash:

quote: Of course I have... if I had to proved anything to you you would have then proved me wrong because then you wouldn't be an egoist.[/qutoe] Proved you wrong? I am not going to argue against somebody who is obviously misled. They never change their minds anyways. [quote]You people"? Who? I'm facing the "facts" and "tests" that Asher and Wraith hand me... because what they're handing me are "facts" and "tests" as opposed to opinions. To help you out, an opinion is something that cannot be proven (either correct or incorrect) while a "fact" is something that can be. [quote] Me saying I have brown eyes is a fact... even if in truth I have green/blue eyes... the "fact" I have brown is because that is something that can be proven/disproven.

There an entire sentence making absolutely no sense what so ever.

quote: Your "fact" that "Apple just sucks" isn't a fact at all, and that's what I've been trying to do... get you to show me some "facts" to back up that statement, instead of saying that I'm blabbering, etc. and basically writing off my entire post. If you haven't noticed, this thread started out just to let people know about a specific article in a magazine, so really, we're all off topic after Asher pointed out how off-base trusting that specific article really was. So if I'm blabbering, by your logic, so is Wraith, Asher, and yourself

And by your logic, you already have been proven wrong so I guess we have nothing more to discuss? I have shown again and time again facts in my earlier posts in this thread basically restating evidence other PC users have done. You go on endless trying to cloud the facts and filter the truth from the people who really need. Mac Users are just like Bible thumping Christians with no agenda, those christians who so blindly believe this and that is a sin, and all of that crap like Civnation. You are so blinded by an inferior argument you take it out on others. Shame on you.

	26-07-2002 03:53									#101
	Increase Your PM Length

You're so full of it, Fez! Therefore I am putting you my Ignore List. Take that! And that!

	26-07-2002 04:13									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Cloud9 You're so full of it, Fez! Therefore I am putting you my Ignore List. Take that! And that!

Full of the truth? Yes that is what I am saying right now.

	26-07-2002 05:28									#103
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I like my mac. I'd find it a dubious assertion that pcs performance really matters for the vast majoirty of the operations I do: the only area where it would really matter would be game playing, and that's fine because we get games a year later than you do anyways!

	26-07-2002 20:42									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Wraith --"sorry for calling you paranoid. " Oh, but I am paranoid. I'm just reasonable about it.

Sounds like me

quote: --"Do script kiddies just indiscriminatly hit any computer on the 'Net?" Basically, yes. I used to work at a datacenter, and we did some pretty decent monitoring. We caught all sorts of people scanning our network blocks all the time, from all over the world. Lots of AOL accounts, of course....

Why am I not surprised about the AOL accounts? *sighs*

quote: Dial-up may be a bit safer, if only because the kiddies will be more likely to target the IP blocks of broadband providers. Hosts on broadband are much more useful for DDoS. However, most broadbrand providers also have dial-up (and vice versa), so I wouldn't count on this. Dial-up accounts aren't active as much, however, which is a bigger help. Still not at all a sure thing, but safer than the always-on nature of broadband.

Well, that's a slight comfort, I suppose.

quote: At the least you should be running something like Zone Alarm, even on a dial-up account. Trojans are not a problem as long as you're aware of where your software is coming from and you don't open any file mailed to you. What needs to be watched for more are viruses and exploits. The former means turning off things like Active X and running a virus scanner, the latter means keeping your software patched. However, you can never be truely safe from the latter, because the good guys aren't the only ones looking for exploits. Macs are probably safer than Windows PC in this regard simply on the numbers; less Macs around, less people looking for exploits.

Zone Alarm? Know if there's anything like that for the Mac? What exactly does that kind of a program do?

I thought that's what trojans were... glad to know I'm not a complete newb... *nods* So my being less conspicuous helps a little by having a Mac... I know I've never even heard of a Mac virus before. Though with Mac X on a UNIX core it may start being easier for somebody to create scripts that run on all the OSes.

quote: --"Do you use some kind of softare that helps in the back-up process?" Ahead Nero... in other words, not really. It's just that CD blanks are cheap, my CD writer is fast (x24), and I don't change bookmarks that often. I've done enough desktop and server support work to be used to regular backups, and copying all my docs, dbs, etc, to CD once in a while is no big deal.

*nods* Just using regular CDRs, or in your opinion, are CD-RWs all right to use as well?

<-- Hates the fact that he can't remember what speed his writer is... 8x, I think... *sighs*

quote: --"my cousin with the XP box will be annoyed that he could have done it for under a grand" The wonders of online shopping

Any ideas for good places to shop then?

quote: --"I'm thinking an iBook these days is actually the best product Apple has as far as cost and what you get are concerned. " Just from my glance at their page, that's probably the case. I'd have to check into a lot more things (like battery life comparisons) before I'd think of getting one, but any laptop I'd have would likely be mostly used for word processing and e-mail type apps (along with playing DVDs, which seems to be pretty good at draining batteries).

Battery life is advertised to be 5 hours (at least on my older model one) but it generally gets 2-3 though I've pushed it to 4 when I forgot and just left it on once playing MP3s... *nods* Mine came with the DVD player, and you're right, those three things are all I use mine for... minus the extra HD via my Airport network.

Speaking of wireless networks... you mentioned something about them earlier. Does the fact that I've set mine up so only those with certain Airport card ID #s can get on help with the whole wireless security issue? Or are there other things I should do to also secure it further?

quote: --"Are all those open-source programs fully compatible with others, though?" Converting your existing game library would probably be your biggest problem. I don't keep up with games that much any more, so I can't say what all is available (especially the classic ones), or how much it'd cost.

I was afraid of that. I do have CivII ToT on my windows emulator... just had to have that one...

quote: --"Now for your PhotoShop and GoLive stuff I suppose there are open-source substitutes" Well, for Photoshop you could use The GIMP. It's quite feature rich. I don't do anything fancy, so I can't really comment on how it compares to Photoshop. GoLive is an HTML editor, right? Personally I use DreamWeaver (I run a couple web sites), but that may be too pricey for you. Then again, you've bought an Adobe pro web editor... Anyway, this is one area I haven't found a good open source substitute yet. I haven't looked for one for a few months, though; I should check it out this weekend.

*nods* Photoshop, FreeHand, Print Shop, and GoLive are my main other programs besides the MS Office suite.

Yeah, GoLive is a web editor... I'm an IT Coordinator for my uni and they have Dreamweaver... I just prefer the interface of GoLive better, even though it does plop down some extra code you have to go through and edit out once you're done.

Good luck on hunting it out... if you happen to come across one, be sure to let me know...

I was supposed to have paid for the Adobe pro web editor?

	26-07-2002 21:01									#105
	Suffering from ads?

First off, Fez, if you could go back and edit your post so I know where the quotes are and where they aren't I'd appreciate it... makes it hard to make sense of what you're trying to actually respond to.

Point out if there was anything I missed... unlike your dropping points, I'm refusing to if I can help it, but you're not making it easy.

quote: Originally posted by Fez Flame flash: Proved you wrong? I am not going to argue against somebody who is obviously misled. They never change their minds anyways.

Obviously misled? About what? I was attempted to explain to you what an ethical egoist was, and the theory behind it since you didn't catch it. I'm more of a universalist myself, and therefore if you were able to actually tell me something that was factual and unbiased I might change my mind... so far, you haven't, nor have you proven your statement (which as I explained later, was impossible to prove.)

quote: There an entire sentence making absolutely no sense what so ever.

*sighs* And there goes my attempt to explain to you the difference between opinion and fact. If anybody is a lost cause (since you insinuated I was) it would be yourself instead in that regards.

quote: And by your logic, you already have been proven wrong so I guess we have nothing more to discuss? I have shown again and time again facts in my earlier posts in this thread basically restating evidence other PC users have done. You go on endless trying to cloud the facts and filter the truth from the people who really need. Mac Users are just like Bible thumping Christians with no agenda, those christians who so blindly believe this and that is a sin, and all of that crap like Civnation. You are so blinded by an inferior argument you take it out on others. Shame on you.

By my logic? Could you point out how you come to that conclusion? I mentioned where you could have proven me wrong, yet you failed to and continued to act as an egoist would... thereby proven my thesis correct regarding if you were an egoist or not.

Then I went on to attempt to explain to you what the difference between an opinion and a fact was... and asked that you "prove" your blanketed opinion regarding Apple's just sucking.

And if you notice, I'm actually having a good conversation with Wraith who is helping me out on my Mac->PC switch questions. In other words, I'm getting some truth out there for fellow Mac users, if they want to, to actually switch easily with little problem. No filtering has been going on whatsoever... I've just been attempting to get you to actually debate and add to the conversation rather than throwing out anti-Mac/Apple rhetoric. Which you haven't... and have now begun to attack me personally.

It'd be a completly new topic whatsoever to take you up on the "Christan Bible thumpers" [paraphrase] so I'll just let that one slide. Though I'd like to see where you don't fall into this category as well since you seem to be attempting to burn all Mac users at the stake rather than advising on how to actually mend our ways or enlighten us how we can survive in a MS world.

I take what out on others? You're the one lashing out in anger... I've been attempting to explain different points that I've been making to you in different ways, trying to at least get the admittance that no computer system is infallible, that no OS is perfect, while no OS "just sucks" either.

If you haven't noticed, I've admitted several times OS X isn't as stable as Apple advertises, so how can your arguement that I'm a Mac fanatic really stand? Here I am, trying to sit on both sides of the fence... yet it seems all I keep on doing is racking myself with no further enlightment whatsoever from you.

I'd also like to ask what, besides those two articles, you've actually brought to the table? None if my memory serves, though you'll get an apology out of me if you can point out when you used more than that.

"crap like Civnation."

Huh? Didn't understand that one.

	26-07-2002 21:05									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Fez Full of the truth? Yes that is what I am saying right now.

And there's the egoist again... actually Fez, that's the funniest thing I think you've said this whole time.

And Cloud9... ignoring him doesn't do anything but give credence to his Mac Fanatic arguement. And I know I'm no fanatic.

quote: Monolith quipped this... I like my mac. I'd find it a dubious assertion that pcs performance really matters for the vast majoirty of the operations I do: the only area where it would really matter would be game playing, and that's fine because we get games a year later than you do anyways!

And they're usually less buggy that way too, aren't they?

	26-07-2002 21:50									#107
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by FlameFlash Zone Alarm? Know if there's anything like that for the Mac? What exactly does that kind of a program do?

Zone Alarm belongs to a category of software called firewalls. What they do is to block unauthorised intrusions and limit internal access to the Net. Not all firewalls are programs some are devices. Some routers perform simple firewall-like functions.

quote: Originally posted by FlameFlash I thought that's what trojans were... glad to know I'm not a complete newb... *nods*

Trojans are programs that claim to do one thing but with some additional malicious function, such as taking over control of your computer or opening a back door for remote access.

quote: Originally posted by FlameFlash Speaking of wireless networks... you mentioned something about them earlier. Does the fact that I've set mine up so only those with certain Airport card ID #s can get on help with the whole wireless security issue? Or are there other things I should do to also secure it further?

Here's an article for some interesting reading.

I suppose than you haven't paid for PhotoShop either? Hmmm?

	26-07-2002 22:11									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Wraith You wouldn't happen to have a model number for that, would you? AFAIK, IBM doesn't sell any "supercomputers" at all. They do sell mainframes and midframes and high-end servers, but not "supercomputers". And if you're talking about what I think you're talking about, the Power4 chips, then you're a bit mistaken. They are a far cry from a basic RISC 6000 (starting with four cores on a die).

   
http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserve...gescale/sp.html
     
Machine Type: 9076

Node Type 375/450 MHz
POWER3
SMP
Packaging Thin

Microprocessor Type POWER3-II
Processors per node 2/4
Clock rates 375/450 MHz

Memory    
System (min/max) 256MB/16GB*
L2 Cache 8MB**

PCI I/O Capacity    
Slots available (base node) 2 PCI(32-bit)

Internal Disk Capacity    
Min/max (base node) 0/73.4GB

Benchmarks (2, 4-way);(375 / 450 MHz)
SPECint_base2000 248/313
SPECfp_base2000 330/426
etc...

* shared memory
**per processor

	26-07-2002 22:12									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

--"Zone Alarm? Know if there's anything like that for the Mac?"

Never looked for them, since I don't have a Mac. It's classed as a "personal firewall", so if you know any good Mac software sites you can search for that.

--"Just using regular CDRs, or in your opinion, are CD-RWs all right to use as well?"

Either is fine, but I just use CDRs. I only use Fuji brand at the moment. They're the easiest to find that come out of a specific manufacturing plant known for good quality.

--"Any ideas for good places to shop then?"

Pricewatch is a place to go find a good baseline on prices. I tend to get my memory from Crucial, although there are cheaper brands.

--"Does the fact that I've set mine up so only those with certain Airport card ID #s can get on help with the whole wireless security issue?"

It helps, but there's more that can be done. Check out this Wireless Security Blackpaper for a decent primer.

--"I was supposed to have paid for the Adobe pro web editor?"

You or your company. Whatever.

Wraith
"If your computer speaks English, it was probably made in Japan."
— Alan J. Perlis.

	26-07-2002 22:20									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Flameflash:

I won't even bother responding because half of your message is a repetition of the other half. If you decide you got some evidence backing you come to me with it, but for now you got nothing. Your idiocy goes way too far for me to handle.

	01-08-2002 10:15									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Zone Alarm = Firewall.

*nods* Thanks for all that info, Urban Ranger. Especially the artcle. But what were you talking about as far as Photoshop goes?

Regarding Firewalls... think Systemec makes a good enough one? Just curious if anybody has heard anything bad about their products in general.

Wraith... *nods* Good quality CDRs, huh? I take it you've had a lot of problems with some of the other types then?

If there are cheaper brands than Crucial... any special reason why you like them better?

Yes... my company... I'd forgotten about them...

quote: Fez only complained here I won't even bother responding because half of your message is a repetition of the other half. If you decide you got some evidence backing you come to me with it, but for now you got nothing. Your idiocy goes way too far for me to handle.

Wow, once somebody tries to actually debate facts with you all you do is hurl insults. If you reread my post you'll find that I was forced to repeat myself because no matter how hard I try you refuse to listen to any other reasoning.

Fanatical you've called me, yet I've listened to those who were willing to not throw insults and offer genuine help.

...I've attempted to explain where I'm coming from to you in different phrases and ways since I didn't seem to be being clear to you from the manner in which you would respond to me.

Name calling... do I even have to touch on that one? Should I? That is simply rude and the childish manner in which you've written off all my posts... "don't say something unless you have something nice to say" certainly applies here... if you'd actually responded to points in my posts, maybe I could understand it... maybe I could understand name-calling... however, by itself it is simply rude and uncalled for, especially when I have made every attempt to get through to you on where I'm coming from.

If I have evidence!? After this entire thread you have the gall to ask me for evidence. I have defined what opinions are... I have defined what facts are... you have not given me counter definitions and therefore my definitions stand without being challenged. I then asked you to justify and give evidence of your statements because you were simply making them blanketly.

I even attempted to explain to you the philosophical ethical egoism that you seem to subscribe to from the way you handle yourself when lashing out at me.

And you have the gall to ask for evidence?

I ask you now, what evidence are you wanting of me? I have asked you numerous times now to supply evidence to back up your statements. At no time have you ever asked for evidence regarding mine, yet now you wish me to attempt to supply evidence for every single post I have written on this thread? Or what posts or things specifically?

Quotes would be nice since simply demanding evidence when I already have explained definitions and theories and requested evidence myself seems a little strange... if not hypocritcal. For you to demand evidence from me you need to respect my posts and words and supply evidence yourself. As it stands with you not actually addressing any of my points but simply degrading me you flow all your arguments to me (in other words, you tell me I'm right) by refusing to actually offer counter-points.

Also, to let you know, in case you didn't, by telling me you think I suffer from "idiocy" is, in fact, saying that I'm mentally retarded. When you wish to throw an insult, at least know the definition well enough to understand if it will even come close to hitting the mark or not.

And obviously... unless you have a higher definition of "retardation" than I do (there are many degrees after all, however when used as an insult the lowest is generally assumed) I'm surprised you'd choose that word since I can obviously operate a computer with ease, which somebody unfortunate enough to be "retarded" or more politically correct: "learning disabled" cannot.

	01-08-2002 10:32									#112
	Got spare money?

I have no time for this repeated ranting. You have failed to prove anything. Your arguments are lacking fact. You cannot make decisions on what your argument precisely is and you fail to generate clear decisions.

	01-08-2002 10:34									#113
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

After reading that last comment I was just about to reply "I agree with FlameFlash" but then I realized it was Fez who posted it.

	01-08-2002 10:43									#114
	Got spare money?

Why should you get a Mac? Two words... Escape Velocity

And the G5 will rule all!!!

	01-08-2002 10:44									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Many thanks Asher... glad to know that Fez just used his own statements to better describe what he was doing in somebody else's eyes.

And here I am, wondering if Fez actually even read my post before defining it as a "rant" since his response to it didn't really make any sense to me.

Definitions:
Rant: n. pompous or pretentious talk or writing.
n. bombastic declamation
v. talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner.

Declamation: vehement oratory

(please don't tell me I have to define oratory.)

Vehement: (there were quite a few, here's the one that fit best IMHO) marked by extreme intensity of emotions or convictions.

So, all in all, while a rant has the connotation of being bad, it is actually just a very intense speech or post full of emotion and energy that one (the poster) believes in fully.

And Fez... back up your statements: what have I failed to prove? What facts are they lacking? What facts would you like to be provided? Where is my argument lacking direction?

	01-08-2002 10:46									#116
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks Tungsten... EV fan myself too. Personally still like the original over Override or Nova... but then I've only registered the original too...

	01-08-2002 10:47									#117
	Remove this text

The word on the street is Nvidia is making a dual-channel DDR motherboard for the G5. That'll be interesting.

	01-08-2002 10:51									#118
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Have you heard any new info on the G5, Asher? My Mac is perilously close to obsolesence, but I might hold out for a G5 if they are going to be available anytime soon...

	01-08-2002 10:54									#119
	Increase Your PM Length

All I know is Motorola told everyone they'd be out in February 2002 a long time ago, and at the time they were supposedly very fast. The problem is that the design hasn't changed in a while, I'm guessing they're having production problems moving to the 0.13 micron process (just like Nvidia and ATI are having), and that's why the G5 is delayed.

Unfortunately that means by the time it comes out I think it'll be on par with the fastest CISC PC processors. That seems good at first, but Motorola's CPUs have never scaled (increased in clockspeed over time) very well, while PC processors have.

I just wish they'd get it out the door already. The G4 is long overdue to be retired.

	01-08-2002 10:58									#120
	Support Apolyton

quote: Unfortunately that means by the time it comes out I think it'll be on par with the fastest CISC PC processors. That seems good at first, but Motorola's CPUs have never scaled (increased in clockspeed over time) very well, while PC processors have.

Great, sounds like we might get another G4. Typical. Too bad I'm such a Mac OS whore or I might consider switching.

edit: Thanks for explaining "scaled" to me, by the way. I always appreciate being treated like a moron...