01-08-2002 22:45									#61
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Have my squad spawn Camp Liege and park my l33t R-35 in front of the bunker door so the Nazi's couldnt spawn out. lol.

	01-08-2002 23:13									#62
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Serb, if Stalin had just You on his mind, You would have lost without any discussion. Case closed.
Was SU growing before the war? Cementaries were growing in Ukraine and gulags were. That's all. SU had some successes - under New Economic Politics, but it was all halte dby dear Uncle Joe.

	01-08-2002 23:17									#63
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I'm against changing history usually, but for this case I'd make an exception - the 20m Russian casualties directly from the war, plus the 6m from the Holocaust, plus the ~30m casualties in other parts of the world, are too big a sacrifice not to stop if you had the chance.

I think if the Mensheviks were propped up in Russia and the October Revolution was a failure, that would take away a large part of the impetus for Fascism. As well, drastically altering the Treaty of Versailles would help the Weimar significantly and reduce anger in Germany. Finally, if the Dutch ceded Indonesia to Japan, they would have had no need to fight for their industrialization, saving millions of Chinese and Japanese civilians.

	01-08-2002 23:18									#64
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Dan Severn, even the highest ever mentioned number of 20mln of Soviet citizens that died during the war is silly, as Stalin counted into that ones that died during the Great Hunger period. 27 milions is absurd.
Anyway, lets say that 15 mlns died. Imagine how many Soviets would be left after the war if they fought on their own... Anyway, this number also contains collaborants of Hitler., and the number of those killed by Soviets themselves.

	01-08-2002 23:20									#65
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Why should the dutch have given Indonesia to japan? One foreign power to another? Appeasement didn't work against Hitler, and iot would not have against hirohito.

	01-08-2002 23:23									#66
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What do You mean by changing the treaty of Versailes? When it comes to the Polish border, it was quite good for Germans, and they were still unhappy. They would have been unhappy no mather what. Anyway, if they weren't,
Poles, Czechs or whoever would be. And would fight.So what do You mean? Money? Germans didn't pay it anyway.

	01-08-2002 23:25									#67
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Goingonit:

quote: Finally, if the Dutch ceded Indonesia to Japan, they would have had no need to fight for their industrialization.

giving territory to japan? BAD IDEA. what most of you westerners fail to realize is that the japanese during that time were... harsh... to put it mildly, to people they colonized.

their treatment of korea was nothing short of brutal, and their destructive rule of both korea and china are probably very close to stalin's abuse of the soviet people.

and you propose to give japan territory to avert a pacific war? to hell with that. they deserved every single bit of the destruction they received in the pacific war-- including the atomic bombs.

and the atomic bombs, well, the civilians didn't deserve it. it's just that the bombers missed choice military targets because of politics.

	01-08-2002 23:26									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Dan Severn, even the highest ever mentioned number of 20mln of Soviet citizens that died during the war is silly, as Stalin counted into that ones that died during the Great Hunger period. 27 milions is absurd. Anyway, lets say that 15 mlns died. Imagine how many Soviets would be left after the war if they fought on their own... Anyway, this number also contains collaborants of Hitler., and the number of those killed by Soviets themselves.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you really think that the Russians could have defeated the nazis without any help? If that is so, why did stalin keep begging for another front? He would have profitted more from conquering all of europe, had he been able to. To win against the soviets, it would not have been necessary to kill every last one of them, if that's what you're saying. Like you said, many fought on the side of hitler. Doesn't sound like undying loyalty to the SU to me. The Russians came within a hair's breadth of collapse in 1941. Had Hitler taken Stalingrad, Moscow, or Leningrad, the war would have been all but over. It was not until 1943 that the soviets began to turn the tide on the eastern front. The coincides with the allied invasion of italy, BTW.

	01-08-2002 23:26									#69
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dan:

Although the brutal empire was done with Hirohito's compliance, most of the fault lies with Tojo and his ilk.

	01-08-2002 23:28									#70
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Hitler and Hirohito were fighting for essentially different reasons. Japan was fighting WWII because it was rapidly running out of materiel to supply its economy for industrialization. Japan, a country with a very small landmass, had 80 million people and precious few resources, especially oil and rubber. Meanwhile, the Americans were neing protectionist and selling to them less and less. If they had not thought it necessary to fight for these things, they would not have entered the war.

And what I meant by changing the treaty of Versailles is eliminating war reparations, which, though they were not paid in full, still contributed in large part to the hyperinflation that plagued Germany, and also by not allowing the French to occupy the Ruhr (which they did until 1923.)

	01-08-2002 23:29									#71
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i saw the change you made.

no, ceding indonesia to the japanese would not have stopped the deaths of hundreds of thousands of chinese and koreans. why? because japan would have continued to attempt to colonialize both.

face it, the japanese were savage and brutal people then, and felt no guilt and no problem with attempting to exterminate the cultures of china, korea, and taiwan in an attempt to make a japanese empire.

they deserved destruction.

	01-08-2002 23:37									#72
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quote: Japan was fighting WWII because it was rapidly running out of materiel to supply its economy for industrialization. Japan, a country with a very small landmass, had 80 million people and precious few resources, especially oil and rubber.

not materiel-- that's military hardware. material.
and japan was running out of it, but they were already trying to colonialize the other pacific rim nations before the war. the fact the war occured was nothing short of a very much deserved karma, because how the japanese treated those in their "greater co-prosperity sphere"...

no. if anything, the war on japan was just, and therefore should not have been altered or erased.

	01-08-2002 23:42									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit And what I meant by changing the treaty of Versailles is eliminating war reparations, which, though they were not paid in full, still contributed in large part to the hyperinflation that plagued Germany

Hyperinflation was not much of a factor in the starting of WWII.

	01-08-2002 23:42									#74
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I find it ridiculous that some posters are justifying the Second World War for the 'science'.

There are at least as many inventions created during peacetime as during wartime. The only difference is that war inventions are given a special significance, whereas peacetime inventions are just 'inventions'. That's why people tend to assume that wars speed up technological development.

Telephones, television, electricity, cars, railways are all peactime inventions.

Looking at all these examples above, it's hard to imagine a situation where these technologies would NOT evolve into items similar to which we have today.

For every war technology with peactime applications, there is at least one which is completely worthless.

Examples include the bouncing bomb, nerve gas, advanced propeller aircraft (got superseded by jet), and V1 flying bombs.

	01-08-2002 23:45									#75
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quote: giving territory to japan? BAD IDEA. what most of you westerners fail to realize is that the japanese during that time were... harsh... to put it mildly, to people they colonized. their treatment of korea was nothing short of brutal, and their destructive rule of both korea and china are probably very close to stalin's abuse of the soviet people. and you propose to give japan territory to avert a pacific war? to hell with that. they deserved every single bit of the destruction they received in the pacific war-- including the atomic bombs. and the atomic bombs, well, the civilians didn't deserve it. it's just that the bombers missed choice military targets because of politics.

I really don't have any answer for you, unfortunately - I just proposed that as something I believed would avert WWII. Maybe a war between America and Japan would not have dragged in the rest of the world, in which case, of course, that would have been preferable.

Furthermore, North Korea has been rather brutal itself in its treatment of its people.

	01-08-2002 23:46									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Hyperinflation was not much of a factor in the starting of WWII.

It made Germans poor, and more willing to go to extremes to remedy their situation.

	01-08-2002 23:48									#77
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The economy had recovered by the late twenties and Hitler had failed to seize control of the government during the height of the hyperinflation period.

The US stock market crash and subsequent world depression was a far greater factor in the rise of the Nazi party and its election in 1933.

	01-08-2002 23:52									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman When you think about it, history has really worked out nicely since then.

Yes for some people it worked out nice afterwards (esp. the USA and later W. Europe and other places), but for a lot of people it was a big loss. Just look at Eastern Europe, which were "invaded" with communism. If that had not happened Eastern Europe would have been alot richer today, today (in the last 15 years or so) they are growing fast and will soon be part of the EU .

	01-08-2002 23:53									#79
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quote: I really don't have any answer for you, unfortunately - I just proposed that as something I believed would avert WWII. Maybe a war between America and Japan would not have dragged in the rest of the world, in which case, of course, that would have been preferable. Furthermore, North Korea has been rather brutal itself in its treatment of its people.

but at least in north korea, the government is by koreans. i won't make excuses for that hellhole. but in north korea, they don't ship off their women to be sex slaves on their front lines, which is what the japanese did to the unlucky korean women. they don't force unwilling young men to be their troops on the front line and use them as connon fodder, which is what japan did to the koreans. they don't try try stamp out every last vestige of korean culture, which is what japan tried to do. they don't drag random koreans to be servants for soldiers on the battlefield where they were often treated with no respect, often humiliated by being forced to drink body fluids or just doing dangerously stupid, like the japanese did to the koreans.

north korea's brutality is no different from that of a failing communist state with no alernative.

japan's brutality was like that of the nazis.

	01-08-2002 23:53									#80
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But Hitler wouldn't have tried to sieze power had Germany not suffered as it did after Versailles.

	01-08-2002 23:53									#81
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Would this include stopping the rise of Hitler, and the holocaust?

	01-08-2002 23:55									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit But Hitler wouldn't have tried to sieze power had Germany not suffered as it did after Versailles.

My point was that the US was at fault for Hitlers rise to power and thus WWII.

	02-08-2002 00:04									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin My point was that the US was at fault for Hitlers rise to power and thus WWII.

Right, sorry about that.

	02-08-2002 05:14									#84
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Serb,
you arguements, for the most part (though some do have some merit), are complet and utter horse sh*t that depend on butchering my arguements to even stand up. I stand by everything that I said, and your poor arguements just hilighted your desperetness to try and counter the harsh truth that I said.

I would just like to reiterate that if there was no western front, Nazi Germany could of concentrated all its resources on the Soviet Union and crush it. Perhaps later tonigt, if i get time, i will espose the numorous flaws in your arguements. It would be nice if some people knowlegable on the subject would do some of this in the mean time, a few people already have, I noticed.

Kman

EDIT: I can see why you spent so much time writing. A hollywood writer would need at least that much time to concoct such fiction...

	02-08-2002 07:18									#85
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All this arguing about who won that really bad war following that first really bad one is great, but the question has yet to be answered.

Obvioulsy one would want to prevent the war in such a way that our present would be at least as good as it is now (btw I didn't actually support keeping the war to save science, I was playing devil's advocate. Nonetheless it is something to think about).

But how do you actually do that? What were the ultimate causes of the war, not just the proximate causes. After we figure out those, we can figure out what the world would be like if those factors were removed. Well, we can try anyway.

I think we'd have to know much earlier than 1914...

	02-08-2002 07:37									#86
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Not to mention the American destroyers chained together in Pearl Harbor which were actually missle frigates, and the carrier from which Doolittle flew being named after a man who was at the time an administrative assistant in the Navy Department.

	02-08-2002 07:40									#87
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Lorizael, a good book to read for the causes of WWI (and thus, eventually, WWII) is The Proud Tower by Barbara Tuchman. But technological development, colonialism, and the climate in Europe resulted in WWI, and a very major change in history (like pre-united-Germany) would be needed to avoid it or something like it.

	02-08-2002 07:48									#88
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If WW2 had not occurred I wonder if colonialism might have survived longer, perhaps even until today. Consider this: much of the scientific development that occurred during the war would have occurred anyway. Computers, plastics, nuclear energy, radar, jet engines were all conceived prior to the war. If WW2 had not occurred in 1939 eventually some sort of east - west war would have happened later. Such a war might have started with nuclear weapons.

	02-08-2002 08:03									#89
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"It made Germans poor, and more willing to go to extremes to remedy their situation."


BS...this had some do to with this yes. The reparations the French and Britian made germany pay. But lest we forget the main reason hitler came to power. Hitler was DEMOCRATICALLY elected.


It is no secret that Germany wanted revenge for the great war. The Versaille treaty, the de-industrialization of germany and the loss of the rhineland.

Why do you think hitler had the french sign the treaty in the same box car ww1 ended?

	02-08-2002 08:15									#90
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Let's set the record straight by pointing out that most of the onerous and humiliating conditions of the Versailles treaty were vehemently opposed by Wilson. He literally almost fought to the death against punishing Germany severely, since the crusade to win support for his fourteen points nearly cost him his life.