02-08-2002 08:24									#91
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Hitler was DEMOCRATICALLY elected. ?

Yes, and so was Julius Caesar

	02-08-2002 13:19									#92
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory "It made Germans poor, and more willing to go to extremes to remedy their situation." BS...this had some do to with this yes. The reparations the French and Britian made germany pay. But lest we forget the main reason hitler came to power. Hitler was DEMOCRATICALLY elected. It is no secret that Germany wanted revenge for the great war. The Versaille treaty, the de-industrialization of germany and the loss of the rhineland. Why do you think hitler had the french sign the treaty in the same box car ww1 ended?

Well, if i remeber correctly, he used Nazi Party thugs to intimidate those to elect him. So it was 'democratic' - but not. I maybe misremembering however.

	02-08-2002 14:48									#93
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Dan Severn,
In fact I ment something opposite.
I discussed those numbers for completely other reasons.

	03-08-2002 07:07									#94
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"Well, if i remeber correctly, he used Nazi Party thugs to intimidate those to elect him. So it was 'democratic' - but not. I maybe misremembering however."

There may have been some of that. But Hitlers victory wasnt from a rigged margin of any sort. It was very close. I think 40:34:36. And most people knew when they voted for hitler or the communist party they were voting to end democracy.

Nazi, Wieher, and communists. Or the comunists could of
gotten to power if they had a few more.

	03-08-2002 07:11									#95
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"Yes, and so was Julius Caesar"

Are you being sarcastic? Histories worst Madman really WAS voted to power.


"He literally almost fought to the death against punishing Germany severely, since the crusade to win support for his fourteen points nearly cost him his life."

Yes you are right. But the french and low countries insisted germany pay billions and destroy there economy in the process. Which was sort-of justified considering the damage done to Belgium and Northern france during the war.

At one point in the late 20's the german mark was 24,000:1 the value of where it was pre 1918.

	03-08-2002 07:19									#96
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No. Messing with history could lead to worse results.

	03-08-2002 07:41									#97
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory "Yes, and so was Julius Caesar" Are you being sarcastic? Histories worst Madman really WAS voted to power.

Yes, Caesar gained his positions through bribes, threats, and general fraud. Much as Hitler did.

	03-08-2002 08:13									#98
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My grandfather was a POW for over 4 years, so yes I'd do anything to have stopped him going through that, and saving countless lives.

	03-08-2002 08:39									#99
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Sure I'd have stopped it if I could...the question is how...I'd have maintaned a stronger and happier Weimar republic by using something more similar to the 1815 Congress of Vienna than to the 1919 Versailles. If Vienna worked for post-Napoleonic France, why wouldn't it work for post-Kaiser Germany? The Depression and whatnot might stir things up a bit, but not enough as it did in real life...

IIRC, Hitler wasn't "democratically" elected if you go by any decent definition and application of the word. Can't remember the specifics, but I seem to recall that his party used a lot of dirty and illegal tactics both during elections and later in the Reichstag to guarantee they would have every possible advantage to win absolute power. That's not real democracy.

Heck, for all its relative virtues compared to 2/3 of the planet, even U.S. democracy isn't a perfect application of the term. It's just used as the default standard.

I'm not saying that a significant portion of the German population didn't support Hitler, that's unrefutable, just not the majority. Again, I'm writing from memory so I could be wrong, but not by much I hope...

As for Japan...I'd try to prevent the militarist wing's rise to power and influence. Granted, probably Korea and some parts of China would still be under fierce Japanese control for a while, but there'd be no Pacific War. It bothers me that I can't think of a bloodless way to end Japan's abuses in these occupied territories though...I don't think the non-militarists would just give up on these lands and suddenly treat their inhabitants like equal Asians without a massive leftist uprising in Japan or something...

PS: Russia was on its way to defeating Germany in 1944 anyway...The war could have lasted until 1946-1947 without U.S. intervention and millions more Russians and Germans would have died, but Russia would win in the end. *shivers*

PPS: No, I'm no commie. Sheesh.

	03-08-2002 09:37									#100
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I don't think the USSR would've been doing so well in 1944 if it wasn't for the vast amounts of equipment they got through American Lend-Lease.

	04-08-2002 03:58									#101
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Vast's a bit of an exaggeration. Lend lease aid to Russia helped the Soviet war effort in a few areas of scarce supply, but overall the bulk of it was used in training facilities.

So not much of it made front line service though, and didn't amount to much compared to the total Russian war effort, according to the books/magazines I've read on the subject, mostly British/American sources too (Ostfront, Barbarossa, Aviation History, etc.)

Not to mention that much of the military equipment (Grant/Lee tanks, P-39/P-40 planes, etc.) wasn't of the best quality compared to the latest Russian models in use.

So you could say it helped fill in the gap in a few situations, but wasn't decisive overall. Especially after Kursk 1943.

Last edited by JCG on 04-08-2002 at 04:03

	04-08-2002 04:04									#102
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Eventually, all threads become lease-lend discussions.