01-08-2002 23:49									#1
	Firaxis...Ships Being Attacked by Invisibles...?!!! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Anyone else notice that since 1.29f, that some modern ships are getting attacked by ships you can't see...

The only thing i can assume is that these are enemy subs, but when they attacked in 1.21f we could see them?!

I can see my own fine, just not the enemy's when they attack..

Anyone shed light on this?

	02-08-2002 02:19									#2
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I've noticed it too. I'm pretty sure they're just subs that aren't appearing during the attack for some reason. Try doing what I'm doing in my current game, build a couple subs and send 'em out to move with your other ships. You may not be able to move the other ships quite as quickly, but at least you should be able to see the enemy subs.

	02-08-2002 03:24									#3
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I've seen this with 1.21 as well.

Some one posted a sav with the Barbarian garrison bug. In playing the turn many AI subs attacked without appearing.

In my own games I've seldom been attacked by enemy subs. I do remember having a Carrier attacked in a staging area once. IIRC the sub did not show up.

I've run one over the odd time. Then they show up.

	02-08-2002 03:30									#4
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Do the AIs have stealths? I have yet to see the first one of those attacking... I thought they only showed when they were shot down.
Otherwise, there are some problems at the end of the map (where east becomes west): most of the times the airplanes that attack here are not shown right.

DeepO

	02-08-2002 03:43									#5
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Erh... I just had the same thing happening to me... it was not on the edge of the map, but after the attack, the blub-blub sound of a sub sinking could be heard. As far as I know, stealths do not sink

Strange. I seem to remember that subs would surface before an attack, so that you could see them. Maybe something has changed in the last patch.

DeepO

	02-08-2002 04:13									#6
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i guess (if its true) it wouldnt show you WHERE the sub was attacking from, making them a bit more useful...

maybe.

	02-08-2002 04:28									#7
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Strange. I seem to remember that subs would surface before an attack, so that you could see them. Maybe something has changed in the last patch. DeepO

That's why there's a "Detect Invisible" flag in the unit attributes! I'm not sure off hand, but there's probably a ship, or a plane that will reveal submarines. It sounds to me like Firaxis has just made subs to work the way they're supposed to.

	02-08-2002 04:28									#8
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Strange. I seem to remember that subs would surface before an attack, so that you could see them. Maybe something has changed in the last patch. DeepO

They've become fearful of surface ships and fire while still submerged....

	02-08-2002 04:53									#9
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Willem, there is a ship that will detect subs: the Aegis cruiser. But that was not what I was referring to, I thought that it used to be so that subs were briefly visible when attacking a ship. Now they are not.

As Ubercrux said, it was probably done so that you have a harder time finding the sub after the attack, you need either another sub or an Aegis to see it (or you can hunt him down by moving all over the place with some destroyers until you find the square it's hiding in). It's better this way, but it takes a bit of getting used to.

DeepO

	02-08-2002 05:38									#10
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb They've become fearful of surface ships and fire while still submerged....

Which is pretty much how subs respond in real life isn't it?

	02-08-2002 09:09									#11
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In the Navy...

	02-08-2002 13:16									#12
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I would just like an official response from the Firaxis team as to whether this was intentional or not...!

I mean, i don't mind one way or another, however, as it is... if you are fighting many civs you've no idea which civ's sub has attacked you?!

	02-08-2002 13:24									#13
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One of the ones at war with you?

Hidden does not mean hidden nationality (like Privateers). They are different flags in the editor.

	02-08-2002 15:35									#14
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quote: Originally posted by =DrJambo= I would just like an official response from the Firaxis team as to whether this was intentional or not...! I mean, i don't mind one way or another, however, as it is... if you are fighting many civs you've no idea which civ's sub has attacked you?!

In RealLife(TM), would a transport being attacked by and enemy sub know which country attacked it? I doubt.

OTOH, another sub, being able to spot that enemy sub, would probably be able to identify which country it is from. Hence, having subs flagged as hidden and not hidden nationality, is certainly the right choice. (In terms of realism.)

	02-08-2002 15:58									#15
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mwaf, I'm no navy expert, but I thought that irl it was possible to identify subs by the noises they make... both other subs and larger ships can do this. But, that doesn't matter much, it is a game-thing, and I think that a hidden, but not hidden nationality unit is a nice addition...

One idea which might be difficult to test: In my case the sub attacking was a nuclear one (I haven't seen it, of course, but at that time the Japanese had only nuclear subs), could it be that normal subs surface, while nuclears stay hidden when attacking? From a game mechanical point of view, this could make sense: the 2 subs are originally the same what ADM is concerned (except the movement being 1 higher for the nuke), there could as well be a little more difference between them.

OTOH, all subs could stay hidden...

DeepO

	02-08-2002 16:02									#16
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Nice thought DeepO, i'll keep an eye out for whether it was nuclear subs only, or both or them.

Like i said, i don't mind, i even think it's a good addition... but like DeepO says, it was possible tyo know which sub attacked you by the noise they made. Remember Hunt for the Red October?

	02-08-2002 16:16									#17
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO mwaf, I'm no navy expert, but I thought that irl it was possible to identify subs by the noises they make... both other subs and larger ships can do this.

True, but in Civ, subs qualify as 'subs' and AGEIS Cruisers qualify as 'larger ships'. In other words, a Transport or a Destroyer (which in real life probably has the equipment to identify a sub) are not classified as 'lager ships'. The whole point of the subs (in Civ), would, however, be lost, if a Destroyer (as in RL) could identify subs.

Which BTW reminds me of a classic Dr. Strangelove quote:

quote: But you see, the whole point of the Doomsday Device, is lost, if you keep it a secret.

(I can't swear the wording of the quote is prefect, but something along those lines.)

	03-08-2002 10:08									#18
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This is good news as it makes escape for the sub a bit easier. Now if only they can fix ships such that they can move OVER enemy subs without revealing the subs.

quote: As far as I know, stealths do not sink

Oh really, wise guy? Just try putting one IN the ocean.

	03-08-2002 16:35									#19
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Chronus, I was talking about civ, and I can say it again: stealths, nor any other airplane, do NOT sink. I had a couple of airplanes in the ocean once (a bug that I posted on the strat forum), and they could stay there for ever. They do not run out of fuel, they do not sink, they simply consider the ocean tile as a floatable airfield. So who's the wiseguy now?

Back to the invisibles question: I think that it either is some bug, or it is the nuclear sub attacking, like I said. Last night, I saw the two things in one game (in one turn even, IIRC): a ship got attacked by a sub, the sub surfaced and torpedoed him. After that, an invisible attacked another ship, and was destroyed. The next turn, I noticed the German were one nuclear sub down (I keep a very close eye on the AI troops in this game).

DeepO

	03-08-2002 22:50									#20
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quote: So who's the wiseguy now?

Doh!!

quote: nor any other airplane, do NOT sink

All kidding aside, I find it hard to believe that no airplanes can sink. I'll presume you're exaggerating a bit and that you simply mean that they float for a very long time.

	03-08-2002 23:32									#21
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Chronus, look at this post , I agree it is a bug, but fighters will simply stay where they are, and even return to the ocean once they accomplished their mission. They can stay there for ever in the game. I agree that it is a bug situation, and that you normally do not have airplanes in the middle of the ocean without a carrier underneath, but there simply is no option that airplanes will sink in civ

DeepO

	04-08-2002 11:01									#22
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This is truly disturbing

	05-08-2002 20:05									#23
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I have yet to see this in my game, but if subs can now attack while submerged it could offer some new posibilities for the game.

From what I've read from this post, the human cannot determine the nationality of the sub that is engaging his/her ships because the sub remains hidden. I wonder though, can the AI still tell who's sub is sinking their ship??? Hmmmm.

A possible new 'Privateer-like' tactic is starting to form in my mind. Only with subs, you might actually have a chance to sink something.

Slightly off-topic: Should subs, especially with this new hidden capability, have a Retreat option?

Hmmmmmm.
*Strokes Chin*

	05-08-2002 23:00									#24
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quote: Originally posted by steven8r I have yet to see this in my game, but if subs can now attack while submerged it could offer some new posibilities for the game. From what I've read from this post, the human cannot determine the nationality of the sub that is engaging his/her ships because the sub remains hidden. I wonder though, can the AI still tell who's sub is sinking their ship??? Hmmmm. A possible new 'Privateer-like' tactic is starting to form in my mind. Only with subs, you might actually have a chance to sink something. Slightly off-topic: Should subs, especially with this new hidden capability, have a Retreat option? Hmmmmmm. *Strokes Chin*

The thing is, unless you or the AI have the "Hidden Nationality" flag selected, you can't attack a unit without being in, or declaring, a state of war.

	06-08-2002 08:20									#25
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quote: and even return to the ocean once they accomplished their mission.

This is too hysterical!

By the way, DeepO, that is a very good (and entertaining) post you have there!

	06-08-2002 08:33									#26
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Regarding being attacked by an invisisble unit, this just happened in my last game - however it was by an invisible bomber. I could see the bombs it dropped and could hear it, but no plane in sight. Seems like a bug to me.

	06-08-2002 08:44									#27
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If this is not a bug then this could be considered good and bad news. Good news that you can't see attacking subs (as it should be) and bad news that you can sink an attacking sub even though you can't see it (seems a bit odd to me!).

I tried to alter subs in the editor to allow bombardment, like a torpedo attack, but realised that this would mean I could bombard land units as well (which isn't quite right).

I think CTP2 allowed this, but I can't remember exactly.

	06-08-2002 09:24									#28
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quote: Originally posted by stonewall Regarding being attacked by an invisisble unit, this just happened in my last game - however it was by an invisible bomber. I could see the bombs it dropped and could hear it, but no plane in sight. Seems like a bug to me.

Could it have been a Stealth Bomber/Fighter?

	06-08-2002 16:10									#29
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It is probably a bug... are you on the edge of the map? There are more problems there, look at This post . I haven't seen any other missing bomber animations than on the dateline...

DeepO

	01-09-2002 07:53									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Could it have been a Stealth Bomber/Fighter?

It had the Bomber sound, not the Stealth sound....so I think it is a bug.