02-08-2002 13:25									#1
	Bomber Range makes Giga Maps useless Remove this text

A limit of 8 squares is far too small for a huge or Giga sized maps. My map is a world map and the movement is so limited, I couldn't imagine this limit on lets say a European Map Giga Sized.

Has anyone managed to come up with a tool to edit this?

	02-08-2002 19:37									#2
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Can the range not be edited directly in the editor?

	02-08-2002 19:46									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

The range is hard coded (or something) to a max of 8.

	02-08-2002 20:56									#4
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which is stupid!
It shouldn't of been hard coded, thats like rubbing it in our faces or somthing mad like that! In WW2 the bombers from london could make it all the way to the other side of Germany and back.

The fighters couldn't get very far but the bombers could!
This just feels like they set out to annoy us or somthing when they did this! They must of realized that its just a rediculisly short distance and couldn't be arsed to change it, just like they couldn't be arsed to do a hole load of other things!

	02-08-2002 21:49									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Take a pill. Relax. It's just a game.

	02-08-2002 21:52									#6
	It is just a Game but... Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

you have to admit it is very limiting... what if someone wanted to do a WW2 scenario with a detailed Giga map of Europe. Bomber would be rendered in-effective... they would be lucky to get from England to France let alone back...

like I said, I would be very thankful if somebody could hack this limit!

	02-08-2002 23:58									#7
	IMHO, huge maps are meant to be huge, not more detailed Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have read this limited bomber range complaint on many occasions... I see no reason for hardcoding the maximum range value, it should be as editable as everything else, that's right.

However, I believe that the usual reasoning ("bombers are useless on huge maps because of the small range") is not correct. IMHO, the huge maps were meant to be huge, not more detailed. A "huge world map" is actually not a "more detailed Earth" map, it is a map of a planet, say, twice as larger as the Earth. However, the bombers still have the same range as on the real Earth, so their relative range is - on this large planet - lower.

If you ask for the bomber range to be increased for huge maps, why don't you ask for an increase in movement points for ALL the units? That would make sense. Picking just bombers gives little sense to me...

OTOH, asking for some sort of a workaround allowing detailed maps to be created and played, is perfectly okay. Something like multiplying the movement/range values by a factor...

Please, do not understand me wrong. I do not want to start flame wars, I am not attacking anyone's opinion. Just a thought about what is that we should ask for... I guess it is not only editable max_range, but something allowing for a changed map scale.

	03-08-2002 00:45									#8
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Vondrack has a point here.

And I fail to see how bombers are useless on large maps. You can still station them near/at your borders and attack neighboring civs the same way as you can on a small map.

Besides, ships are much more "useless" on large maps. You can station any bomber in any city within one turn but you need a lot of turns ro reach a destination with a ship on larger maps.

I WOULD like to have an editable range >8 tiles but not because of map sizes.

	03-08-2002 00:46									#9
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its simple really. if they let us edit our own air ranges this would make the whole point of extended range airbases obsolete in the expansion pack. thus leaving it like it is makes us have to give them thirty bucks for an expansion game. ta da

	03-08-2002 01:12									#10
	I totally agree Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

very good point Vondrack, the only reason I didn't bring up increasing the mobility of other units is because I am not aware there are any probs increasing them. Only air units have this limit.

Your right Todd, they are not completely useless but they are no where near as effective as they should be. In particular bombers, you need to have range... On my map which is a world map this will be a limiting factor however like I said I cannot imagine how much more in-effective they would be on a Giga map of europe for example.

Not sure if this was done deliberately to squeeze more money out of us, but I am happy we will have airbases - that will eleviate the limited range. Also you can give them infinate range, but this is not ideal.

	03-08-2002 05:36									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You could always give your stealth bombers the infinite bombard range attribute, call it in flight refueling. Another possibility would be to de-select the immobile attribute but I have yet to test that theory, your plane could crash (the game.)

	03-08-2002 07:44									#12
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quote: Originally posted by ACooper Take a pill. Relax. It's just a game.

Yea, surrre. That is the same tired old hackneyed mantra we have heard for months every time someone points out yet another flaw or problem with the game that Firaxis refuses to fix.

A maximum range of '8' for bombers is absurd on even a Large map, and it is worse for Stealth bombers and even Stealth fighters. The "infinite range" option is entirely inadequate, and I'm not sure if precision strikes are possible with it for the human or the AI.

How hard would it be to change the code up to '12' or even '16'? Firaxis just isn't interested.


Actually, I was hoping in Civ 3 we would see MP's change automatically according to map size; that was an improvement I hoped for after Civ 2. Nope.

	03-08-2002 07:48									#13
	Do they have a response? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I probably missed it, but has Firaxis ever responded to Culture Flipping or Bomber Range Limits? I am sure they have a reason, would love to know what it is...

	03-08-2002 07:50									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Actually, I was hoping in Civ 3 we would see MP's change automatically according to map size; that was an improvement I hoped for after Civ 2. Nope.

That's a darn good idea, but it would need to allow you to toggle it on and off depending on the type of scenario someone might want to build.

	03-08-2002 07:52									#15
	Re: Do they have a response? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by teturkhan I probably missed it, but has Firaxis ever responded to Culture Flipping or Bomber Range Limits? I am sure they have a reason, would love to know what it is...

I guess I missed it too - no surprise from Firaxis.

Why CF? Why crazy levels of settler expansion? Why can't subs and privateers attack merchant shipping? Why no Cheat Mode? I guess we are just the hoi poloi not entitled to know.

	03-08-2002 08:01									#16
	sorry about the CF Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Zouave is getting to me... all his propaganda... at first I thought yeah they should change it... but then next thing I know I was a zealous believer... night and day... all I can think about is CF...

I think we are going to start a clan... DEATH TO CF...
look what youve done to me Zouave...

	04-08-2002 04:01									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Coracle Why CF? Why crazy levels of settler expansion? Why can't subs and privateers attack merchant shipping? Why no Cheat Mode? I guess we are just the hoi poloi not entitled to know.

To the administrators: What does culture flipping have to do with the topic? Let's develop the best workaround we can with what is given us and get on with the game! (Or should I have volunteered for that double shift today?)

	04-08-2002 05:01									#18
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Is it possible to scale the movement rates or all units when the player picks the size of the map? For example, tiny maps bombers have range of 6. Standard maps movement rate of 8. Huge maps movement of 10. Or something like that. Also scale the movement of naval units and land units.

This seems to depend on if the huge maps are really larger then the other maps or if the huge maps are the same size, just more detailed?

	04-08-2002 06:58									#19
	good idea but can't be done Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

the limit is 8, there is no changing this...
but what you posted is the right approach, the movement rate of units should be altered according to the map being used... not just bombers but all units.

	04-08-2002 10:15									#20
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I disagree.

If you scale movement you'd also have to somehow "scale" distance between cities in order to keep the balance (you don't want to be able to get through half of the enemy's empire in one turn, do you?).

And if you did this then there would be no reason to play a bigger map anymore as everything is just scaled equally.

	04-08-2002 10:38									#21
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Very interesting

Z

	04-08-2002 10:51									#22
	thats what I meant also Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

yes, that what I mean when I said it depended on the map you were using... let say a map of Europe, even though Giga sized is not the same as a world map Giga sized. The Movement rate would have to be different for both...

It always will come down to the map your using...
When starting this thread I was referring to a Giga sized World Map, the limit of 8 is not indicative of the actual range of bombers... most other units can be adjusted accordingly.

That automatic adjusting feature - great idea - that way we wouldn't have to create a mod for every map we want to play with...

	04-08-2002 12:00									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm currently messing around with a "Battle for Britian" Scenario and I too feel the pain of 8 max moves.

I am using a map of just Northwestern Europe, and THIS is what a bomber can do from London.

Those 3 spots of unimproved German Territory and that road/minebetter fear the oncomming bombers!

(note: i may make France German-Controlled because of this fact)

	04-08-2002 12:01									#24
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oh, the attachment. duh!

Attachment: bomber-range.gif
This has been downloaded 271 time(s).

	04-08-2002 14:03									#25
	thats rough Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good example, shows exactly what we are talking about... why doesn't someone ask Firaxis? Just write a quick memo - it is after all a legitimate concern.

	04-08-2002 16:34									#26
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I bet they limited bomber range to simplify things for the AI.

I feel it in me bones!

	04-08-2002 22:35									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I rarly ever use bombers, so their limited range doesn't really bother me. OR, maybe it's because of their limited range that I hardly ever use them. I hardly use jets either. I just make a few to shoot down the AI bombers.

I don't really like destroying improvements on 'my future territory'. I prefer to make land-based assaults because you can't take cities w/ bombers.

If I do use bombers, it's usually to bombard AI units that are too close to my borders. If the AI is w/in bomber range of my borders, then they are way too close!

	04-08-2002 23:50									#28
	Re: Do they have a response? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by teturkhan I probably missed it, but has Firaxis ever responded to Culture Flipping or Bomber Range Limits? I am sure they have a reason, would love to know what it is...

It's rather simple: The guys at Firaxis like it, so thus it stays. In fact, they really like it. So, ultimately, it stays. Too bad, so sad, tough luck, yadda yadda.

On topic, I think the scaling bombard range per map idea would work nicely. And a removable of the hard-coded limit would probably make the most people happy, too.

BTW, do bombard units normally fail constantly in their attack, after about five turns of constant bombardment on a city? I have never had a succesful hit with a catapult...

	05-08-2002 00:24									#29
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Never used catapult. Not once. Nope. As for bombing "my future territory" I will bomb 1)units 2)strat resources 3) lux 4) cities. In that order. I don't bomb just because I have them to use...

	09-08-2002 23:18									#30
	give me some numbers Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I am working on movement rate of units for my new map - giga sized... if you guys can take a look at the map and tell me what range you think I should give bombers, mobile units etc..

thanks