02-08-2002 22:04									#1
	c#213 A FREECIV FAN RESPONDS Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

#213 A FREECIV FAN RESPONDS
CapTVK responds to the "accusations" against Freeciv

Last edited by MarkG on 02-08-2002 at 22:18

	02-08-2002 22:55									#2
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very interesting.

Did CapTVK find that article by Garwulf for himself, or did you forward him the email that I sent you about it Markos?

Just curious...

	02-08-2002 23:26									#3
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No forwarded email for me, with some bait (the thread) Mark lured me in all by himself

	03-08-2002 16:18									#4
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Making FreeCiv look better by downplaying Civ2 isn't exactly a good way to start, I'd say. Sure, Civ2's AI isn't too exciting, but most people find it quite hard and entertaining enough.
If that AI is so silly, you'd think it wouldn't be so hard to add it to FreeCiv, right?

Secondly, graphically, FC looks very much like Civ2, and that's not just the graphics "ripped" from Civ2 mods, but also simply the entire isometric view, same scale etc.
The only thing is, FC's graphics aren't quite as good.. But then again, that's just a matter of opinion, I guess.

Generally speaking, FC simply looks very much like a bad Civ2 clone... If the only really bad thing about Civ2 is its AI, and the good thing about FC is its multiplaying, what's the point (except for being some sort of a Linux Civ2 port)? Civ2 does that job just fine too, since there won't be any AI involved there.

But on the other hand, FC is a promising ongoing project, so there's plenty of time to give it all the good things of Civ2 and improve on it.
But as of this moment, FC simply isn't there yet, and for the casual or die-hard Civ2 player/creator on a Windows system, there isn't any reason to switch to FC.

	06-08-2002 07:34									#5
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i agree with Mercator....though i am waiting for FC to become what i hope it will become

that is a better game than civ 2...heres to keeping our fingers crossed.....

	07-08-2002 01:58									#6
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Mercator

Before I start there's one important aspect that underlies the Freeciv project which must be clearly understood: it's all done on volunteer basis. The Freeciv developers aren't some group of programmers & artist sitting in a room filled with high tech toys and all the time of the world. These are people just like you and me who happen to enjoy doing stuff for Freeciv in their spare time.

This means...

-You can't make demands on them-

But you can try asking them nicely...... But if you really want something to happen you'll need to help out yourself. You don't need to be a programmer to do that. Bugreporters, graphics/sound/music artists are just as welcome.


(1) AI and Diplomacy
Well, that depends on someone willing to add diplomacy and properly integrate it into the code. I've followed some discussions about this at FUADEC and it all boils down to this: (A) -someone has to be willing to do it- and (B) just as importantly -that person needs to get feedback from both users and other developers-

(2) Graphics
The isometric set was actually introduced thanks to Thue and numerous requests by civ fans who would like to play Freeciv in the Civ2 isometric view. That's exactly the point: The standard isometric tileset is meant to be the same as in Civ2.

As for scale and looks, the graphic tile system in Freeciv is dynamic you can basically design a tileset in any size you want. From 10x10 to 45x45 to 120x120 or even larger. Why hasn't anyone created a new set then? Well, that's were the users and artists come in. I don't think the current isometric set is that hot either. Maybe a few Civ2 scenario designers could pool their talents sometime and create a killer tileset?



(3) Freeciv MP
I've had the chance to play a few quick Freeciv MP games and I can safely state: Freeciv blows Civ2 completely out of the water when it comes to features and playability under MP
FC was optimized for MP and it shows: it has extensive buildlists (general/city), intelligent goto's, the ability to automate settlers (e.a you can give them instructions to build roads from A to B), AI agents for city management (CMA), the ability to store extensive gamelogs (hey, i like stats, okay? )....etc...

Apart from that Freeciv isn't a straight Civ2 clone. It has some features never seen in Civ2 like Fog of War which does add a new dimension to Civ (like the importance of watchtowers). Once you start playing it for awhile and get used to the extra features it really is a good game.



(4) The point
What's the point of Freeciv? Well, there's one major point that other commercial clones don't have: the source is freely available (libre) so it will continue to be improved while the support for it's commercial cousins is dropped once it becomes no longer economically viable. So while Freeciv might be slow on the tracks it does surpass it's competitors in the long run.



So besides keeping your fingers crossed for a better FC, why not lend a hand?

Last edited by CapTVK on 07-08-2002 at 02:05

	07-08-2002 21:55									#7
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK it's all done on volunteer basis

I know! I think that's great, but that doesn't make the game any better.

quote: -You can't make demands on them-

Well... I wouldn't say that. "Demanding" isn't the right word, but I imagine there's a better chance of getting a feature in FreeCiv than there is of getting it in, say, Civ3.

quote: But if you really want something to happen you'll need to help out yourself. You don't need to be a programmer to do that. Bugreporters, graphics/sound/music artists are just as welcome.

Yep... I know, I really should help, but... (I'll save you the lame excuses ).

quote: (1) AI and Diplomacy Well, that depends on someone willing to add diplomacy and properly integrate it into the code. [...]

Indeed... But how organized is this undertaking? Are there any diplomacy models. I don't think one person should just have a go and see where it ends, right? And as the "Apolyton Civ3 wishlist" has shown (and the FC suggestions/ideas?), people are always happy to have their say in things, or at least rant away about their dreams and imaginations.

Perhaps you could start threads here, to ask for suggestions about some thing or another (and lure in people from other places to just let themselves go on their favourite topic). From those suggestions, one or two (of the somewhat more involved people, and with at least a little experience with the FC source or so) could start building up a model of some FC component... That can then eventually be programmed and added to FC.

Then again, I know barely anything about FC, except the very, very occasional visit to the website. But from the look of the front page, there isn't much place for the casual visitor to show (s)he knows everything better.

I think it would help the project if everyone could just say something (possibly without having to go through the troube of subscribing to a mailing list or even registering at this forum). That way you'd reach more people, and hopefully get some people interested enough to contribute.

quote: (2) Graphics The isometric set was actually introduced thanks to Thue [...]

There's nothing wrong with the isometric view, don't get me wrong.

quote: As for scale and looks, the graphic tile system in Freeciv is dynamic you can basically design a tileset in any size you want. From 10x10 to 45x45 to 120x120 or even larger.

I didn't know that (or actually, I think I did, but only remembered it just now).
Maybe the standard tileset should be of a different size from the Civ2 one (a bit larger)... Just to give the impression it's a little bit better than Civ2, even if only for some show-off screenshots.

quote: Maybe a few Civ2 scenario designers could pool their talents sometime and create a killer tileset?

Perhaps... And don't forget the Civ3 designers either, the Civ3 community is much more active these days. But either way, the initiative isn't going to come from them, since they're apparently more than happy with Civ2/Civ3... And one important thing for a good graphics set is consistency. You might find ten people willing to create some outstanding graphics, but it should look good when put together too.

quote: (3) Freeciv MP I've had the chance to play a few quick Freeciv MP games and I can safely state: Freeciv blows Civ2 completely out of the water when it comes to features and playability under MP

Well, I can't argue with that. I haven't played MP in either.

quote: Apart from that Freeciv isn't a straight Civ2 clone.

Naturally.

quote: [...] So while Freeciv might be slow on the tracks it does surpass it's competitors in the long run.

That is most certainly the case.

quote: So besides keeping your fingers crossed for a better FC, why not lend a hand?

It's easier to try to improve on something that is already working nicely, rather than work on something that still has a long way to go...

Maybe one of the focal points of the FC development team should be to figure out how to attract other people, and try and implement such things first... Say, focus on adding scenario-support that will blow Civ2 out of the water. That might attract a host of scenario makers and thus strengthen the FC community. Then again, it might not...

	08-08-2002 03:21									#8
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Building bridges probably would be the best mid-term goal for now. The Freeciv community has been pretty isolated from the larger civ community. They were seperated right after Civ2 came out. And if people don't come forward in the mailing lists asking for scenario support it isn't a surprise that ideas for scenario support tended to lag behind improving MP (there are plans for a script language floating around though). Many FC developers aren't even aware there's a vibrant Civ2/3 scenario/mod community out there.


Starting a discussion about a diplomacy model for Freeciv might be an idea Mercator. The users can share their ideas/views/suggestions (a lot of ideas on the Great wish list really were personal pipe dreams -cool but not practical when trying to implement- ) and make themselves heard while the developers and more skilled fans come up with a workable (and balanced) model. Actually integrating that into the code will be an entirely different kettle of fish.

But the fans will have had a chance to give their input.


It could be a start...

Last edited by CapTVK on 08-08-2002 at 03:36

	08-08-2002 04:13									#9
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Yes... Being able to have your say will at least give some feeling of involvement. Although you should indeed be careful not to be flooded with the impossible dreams.

I'm not sure how much interest scenario support will give among the Civ2/3 communities, or how "useful" this possible attention could then be for the FC community though. Scenario makers usually aren't programmers.
Perhaps here's a question that could be asked to the Civ2/3 (or even CtP, AC and what have you) fans: What feature(s) would make you switch to FC (or at least want to have it too)?
If scenario support would be added, making a Civ scenario converter would be nice.

In any case, a bit more of an "aggressive" approach to the outside world could help.

	10-08-2002 10:26									#10
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I have to say that I think this article misses Garwulf's point entirely. Though FC is part of his thesis, professional game developers, not mod-makers and independent projects like FC, are his targets. The real point is that these people are making the same game over and over while the truth is that the best games earn their status through their originality. He isn't suggesting that games that have their origins in other games are automatically failures, rather, they should explore new paths within the world instead of simply cloning the previous game.

	10-08-2002 12:09									#11
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Kirnwaffen,

I already pointed that out in an earlier thread by MarkG here .

The point was he used his personal observations about FC as a lead-in for his main argument about games originality in general. The truth is FC actually made some remarkable innovations when it comes to micromanagement in MP. This part of FC wasn't reflected in Garwulf's column however.

Freeciv wasn't really on trial here, in fact a commercial clone would have served as a better example. His actual point originality in gaming only appeared in the final paragraphs. Writing a full Freeciv rebuttal would be pointless then. So I only responded to his personal points about FC and concluded with a remark about the main point of his column.

Last edited by CapTVK on 10-08-2002 at 12:47