04-08-2002 03:17									#1
	What does Infantry represent? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

What technological and tactical standard does an Infantry unit represent? The Pedia doesn't say much about it.

According to the animation, the Infantryman doesn't seem much better equipped than a Rifleman, save a helmet.

And can't anyone come up with a better name? "Infantry" is so unspecific!

	04-08-2002 03:24									#2
	Suffering from ads?

I always thought of them as being circa - WWI.

	04-08-2002 06:09									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yeah, bolt action rifles, metal cartridge ammuniton.

	04-08-2002 10:48									#4
	Suffering from ads?

"Over the top, boys" style troops

	04-08-2002 15:40									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

They do look very WWI, aside from the red bits on their shoulders.

	04-08-2002 16:32									#6
	Got spare money?

Although, having said, helmets weren't issued to the British Army until 1917 - it was caps before that.

	04-08-2002 17:43									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Riflemen are US Civil War. Breach loading single shot.

They seem to be sort of between world wars but more like WWI than WWII. Lots of troops still had bolt action rifles in WWII. Much higher rate of fire than a rifleman.

	04-08-2002 19:24									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

I'd say they tried to make a unit that encompassed both WWI and WWII.

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Although, having said, helmets weren't issued to the British Army until 1917 - it was caps before that.

That sounds like the stereotypical British, "Come'on chaps! Let's go give them the what's for! For Queen and country!"

	04-08-2002 19:41									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Yeah, we dont need helmets :umpf:

	04-08-2002 21:29									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've always thought that the Infantry represented soldiers starting about the time of the 'Dough Boys' from WWI up through the WWII era.

	05-08-2002 00:00									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

just thought i'd point out that the french, germans,italians,turks and austro-hungarians were all using helmets in 1914, as were the british but not as standard issue.

	05-08-2002 12:48									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Riflemen are US Civil War. Breach loading single shot.

I don't mean to be an a$$, but it's "breech loading". I suppose, technically speaking, the opening in the rear of the barrel *could* be called a breach and thus the weapon called a "breach loader." But, at least in the US anyway, they're called breech loaders.

And actually, the most common rifle in the US Civil War wasn't a breech loader at all, but the muzzle-loading Springfield rifled musket. Breech-loading repeating rifles were available and were used by both sides (cavalry troops were particularly fond of carbine rifles, since the shorter barrel was easier to manage on horseback and it's nearly impossible to reload a muzzle loader while riding), but their use wasn't as widespread as the single-action, muzzle-loading rifled musket. In fact, the Union army considered the repeating breech loaders undesirable because it thought troops would simply waste ammunition if they could fire it faster and that the more complex guns would be prone to malfunction in the field.

Interestingly, the army wasn't entirely wrong, just 100 years off the mark. The early versions of the M-16 automatic rifle were notoriously easy to jam and panicking US troops did indeed waste tons (literally) of ammunition firing entire clips on full automatic at unseen enemies in the jungles of Vietnam. The newer standard models of the M-16 do not fire in full automatic mode, but only semi-automatic (single shot) and automatic three-round bursts.

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred They seem to be sort of between world wars but more like WWI than WWII. Lots of troops still had bolt action rifles in WWII. Much higher rate of fire than a rifleman.

True. In fact, most troops had bolt-action rifles. Only the US had widespread issue of semi-automatic rifles with the legendary M-1. Many countries did have semi-automatic or automatic pistols, and all had machine guns, but nearly all countries used bolt-action rifles throughout the war.

	05-08-2002 18:02									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

hi ,

they should also have modern day foot infantry , ......

have a nice day

	05-08-2002 18:08									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I agree that "infantry" represents the WWI style troops.

Good idea Panag, maybe two modern infantries. One upgrade for marines and one for regular infantry.

	05-08-2002 19:37									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by dunk I agree that "infantry" represents the WWI style troops. Good idea Panag, maybe two modern infantries. One upgrade for marines and one for regular infantry.

First, I like the idea of another step between Infantry and Mech. Infantry. Perhaps a 'Modern Infantry' Somewhere between Marines and MI. But then I guess that's what Paratroopers are--they do use machine guns.

However, I don't think that any self-respecting Marine would stand for being upgraded to any type of infantry. (Technically the Marines do have infantry, but in Civ3 the Infantry referrs more to the Army branch of service, therefore I think it would be a supreme insult to Marines everywhere to be 'upgraded' into another branch of the military)

Edit: NOTE: This assumption is based soley upon the makup of the US Armed Forces. Other nationalities may vary.

	05-08-2002 21:31									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Infantry IMO is WW1/WW2 foot soldiers with advanced breach loading weapons with the occasional machine gunner. Also they represent a shift in tactics away from marching in a line to more sophisticated infantry tactics.

	05-08-2002 23:01									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by steven8r First, I like the idea of another step between Infantry and Mech. Infantry. Perhaps a 'Modern Infantry' Somewhere between Marines and MI. But then I guess that's what Paratroopers are--they do use machine guns. However, I don't think that any self-respecting Marine would stand for being upgraded to any type of infantry. (Technically the Marines do have infantry, but in Civ3 the Infantry referrs more to the Army branch of service, therefore I think it would be a supreme insult to Marines everywhere to be 'upgraded' into another branch of the military) Edit: NOTE: This assumption is based soley upon the makup of the US Armed Forces. Other nationalities may vary.

I don't mean a step in between infantry and mech inf. It can be a concurrent unit that is cheaper by 30 or 40 shields and doesn't require oil. One offensive and one defensive.

BTW, marines are infantry, they're just specialized and more highly trained. Infantry simply means foot soldier.

	06-08-2002 01:00									#18
	Support Apolyton

I’d think the marine unit should be taken out of the game. It doesn’t fit well in the game, and I don’t see the big deal with amphibious assaults.

Mechanized infantry also should be taken out and replaced with an APC unit that can hold infantry and move faster then a standard foot unit.

	06-08-2002 01:28									#19
	Got spare money?

You have got a point there. Then you could give the Mairne flag to Riflemen and Infantry so that you can make amphibious assaults (but at a great cost, like IRL).

You can make an APC with the editor, but I don't know whether the AI can use it properly.

	06-08-2002 02:02									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by dunk BTW, marines are infantry, they're just specialized and more highly trained. Infantry simply means foot soldier.

I am aware of this, I was just making the distiction--perhaps incorrectly, that Infantry (in the game) represented Army and that the Marines represented a whole other branch of military service. My shortcomming was that I was 'thinking' IRL, about units in 'the game'. --What! Civ3 isn't RL??? WTF?!?!?!

quote: Originally posted by seano1 I’d think the marine unit should be taken out of the game. It doesn’t fit well in the game, and I don’t see the big deal with amphibious assaults.....

Please see the thread in the Strategy Forum: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=53028 for tactics w/ Marines. I have used this strat and it's been fairly successful.

	06-08-2002 03:48									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Barchan I don't mean to be an a$$, but it's "breech loading".

Thats OK you may be one, you may not be one, but you definitly earned this:

Little things for little minds.


Only used for spelling nannies and grammar nazis.

quote: And actually, the most common rifle in the US Civil War wasn't a breech loader at all, but the muzzle-loading Springfield rifled musket.

Yes but the animation isn't of a muzzle loader. Then again they don't show the musket being rammed down either. I don't even want to try to figure just what they thinking when they animated the French UU. That is no musketeer. What I call it gets asterisked so I don't say it here.

	06-08-2002 11:58									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Thats OK you may be one, you may not be one, but you definitly earned this: Little things for little minds. Only used for spelling nannies and grammar nazis.

Ignorance is bliss, isn't? What, if you don't know what something is *actually* called you just make up your own little name for it? I wasn't being a "spelling nanny"; you were using the wrong name for the weapon. Geeze, why not call it a "fire breathing thunder stick" if you don't know what it's called? I was simply trying to point out the *correct* name, if not for your benefit then for the people who read your post and might be mislead, and I think I did a fair job of not criticizing you at all for getting it wrong. And personal insults are my reward? Thanks, pal. It's people like you that make the world such a joy to live in....

	06-08-2002 12:44									#23
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I was simply trying to point out the *correct* name, if not for your benefit then for the people who read your post and might be mislead, and I think I did a fair job of not criticizing you at all for getting it wrong.

You earned what you got. You could have easily written that better. I used the right word. Wrong spelling, big deal. Did you really think I meant the opening on a set of barn door long johns?

quote: And personal insults are my reward? Thanks, pal. It's people like you that make the world such a joy to live in....

I was being funny. You weren't. Get a sense of humor.

Oh and smileys wreck my jokes.

	06-08-2002 13:11									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Anyways, in my mod i have the much needed modern infantry, upgradable from infantry.

Firstly i combined paras and marines to make an all round useful unit available with amphibious warfare:
10,8,1 (10,0,1 bombard ability) airdrop, amphibious. Used the para art and animation. Longbowmen, crossbowmen and swordsmen upgrade to this.

Then used the marine art and animation for the modern infantry, available with ecology:
12,15,1 (12,0,1 bombard) upgradable from infantry, offensive/defensive tagged.

Once the Ai gets Mech Inf, they prefer these over the modern infantry, however, the upgrade from infantry as well as them being the draft unit ensures that there are always plenty of modern infantry around.

	06-08-2002 14:07									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

It sounds like a great idea to have a modern infantry unit that is available between Infantry and Mech. Infantry. But what should it look like and when should it appear and with what attributes?

Ok, My idea would be to push Infantry back to Industialization or Electricity and get the Modern Infantry with Replaceable Parts or Mass Production. That way you have some time to use them. I would not let Modern Infantry upgrade to Motorized Infantry and these two would be treated as totally different units. I have a bit of a problem figuring out the Stats but I think 8/12/1 (I have also moded my Marines to 10/8/1) and they would require oil or rubber in order to make them a bit more strategic (problem would be uif the resources are too scarce the game myight be loopsided).

Reading the above to myself I am contemplating if I should leave Infantry at RP and give the Mod. Infantry at lets say Fission or Synthetic Fibers?

So what do you guys think?

So long...

PS: Dr. Jambo what do you mean with Athens of the North?

	06-08-2002 16:37									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred You earned what you got. You could have easily written that better. I used the right word. Wrong spelling, big deal.

First of all, let me just say that I've no particular beef with you Ethelred, and that I usually find your posts to be both reasonable and informative. And it is fair enough to say that I could have written my initial post better. I believe that every individual has room for self-improvement.

Nevertheless, I can't help but think you're missing the point. You used the wrong word to describe a specific thing, and it's not the same as misspelling the word or making a typo like "to" instead of "too". "I see a black cat" and "I see a black bat" say two entirely different things with the shift of a single letter. Sometimes the small details *are* important, and in this case you were using the wrong word to describe the object in question. Frankly, I don't care what you *meant* to say, what you were saying didn't make sense. Even though I could guess what you were talking about, other people shouldn't have to. That's why I posted my correction.

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Did you really think I meant the opening on a set of barn door long johns?

No, not at all. That's a breech opening, and you used the word breach.

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred I was being funny. You weren't. Get a sense of humor.

Oh, I have a sense of humor. Perhaps your insults weren't all that funny? Anyway, maybe you should try using smilies more often to indicate you're just kidding.

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Oh and smileys wreck my jokes.

That's as may be, but they at least let us know when they *are* jokes....

	06-08-2002 16:39									#27
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Pioneer, Athens of the North is a term often used for Edinburgh.

Regards to what you said about modern infantry... it's almost as if you've read my post but not heeded it!?

Anyways, the modern infantry that i have mentioned in my post above work very well. It essentially means that one can't skip to modern armour before getting a better defensive unit than infantry since i put modern infantry under ecology. Previously, it was possible to beeline straight for modern armour without getting mech infantry first.

Other bonuses of modern infantry include giving the helicopter another unit to transport and allowing civs without oil or aluminium a reasonably good defensive/offensive unit in the modern era. All they require is rubber like infantry.

Combining marines with paras is a definite plus since that now gives us a real useful multipurpose unit and also frees up the marine's animation and artwork for the modern infantry.

	06-08-2002 16:48									#28
	Put an end to popups!

DrJambo, I read your post and I did understand it. The one think that I would never do is change my Marines. I like that unit and I always did. And that's why my suggestion similar to yours it's surely a bit different!

I never heard of that expression before! Why would you do that? If there is one pretty Greek city it's Thessaloniki and not Athens!

	06-08-2002 16:59									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

heheh, yeah, i suppose the phrase refers to the Athens of Greek myths... beautiful architecture, statues, culture, etc... not in reality.

why don't you merge the paras and marines together, call them marines, but give them the para's animation and artwork? Then you get a very good unit that can amphibious assault and airdrop...!

	06-08-2002 18:30									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I don't like that a specific unit is called "Infantry". Maybe you could solve it by allowing the original Rifleman earlier and calling it "Fusilier", call the Infantry unit "Rifleman" and introducing a Modern Infantry unit - hopefully with a better name.