05-08-2002 14:10									#1
	A potential serious problem with 1.29f! Increase Your PM Length

I think i may have found a potentially serious short-coming with 1.29f...

It's to do with the new increased value of the industrial to modern age techs and selling them for huge amounts in gpt to the AI. At times this value can reach as high as 250+ when the AI apparently has the income to support this.

However, i think that at times the AI civs are bankrupting themselves. I have no doubt that at the time of the deal the AI has the finances to support this contract, however, 20 turns is a long time and a civ's financial status can change as quickly as the Scottish weather. Take these 2 examples of ways for a civ's financial status to change dramatically:

1. Say the civ were to decide to change government for instance!! At least one turn of anarchy and a possible humungous drop in income (e.g. changing from democracy to communism).

2. By remaining in democracy during a lengthy war, the effects of war weariness would result in decreased income, production and growth...

Now, the proof for my findings. Well being massively further ahead in one game than the other civs and exceedingly rich, i used this as an opportunity to investigate the AI civs' cities on a regular basis. When i happened to check on India and England, all 10 or so of their cities had zero improvements, bar Wonders!! Remember this was in the in the modern age! I found this totally bizarre and my only reasoning was they had sold off all their improvements to cover a bankrupt empire with an inescapable negative income.

In previous versions of civ3 gpt deals rarely got to above 100 gpt... in 1.29f this can easily be higher than 200 gpt!

Has anyone else found games with 1.29f following a similar pattern to this!? I will keep an eye on this bearing in mind that it is only likely to occur when the human player has the tech lead.. reason being they will settle for any major gpt deals whereas due to the huge increase in monetary deals in the industrial/modern ages Ai to Ai trading is severely lessened.

I would appreciate if the developers could have a look into this and anyone else for that matter.

Regards

J

	05-08-2002 16:25									#2
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I'm currently experiencing the opposite problem in the late industrial era. Wanting to trade my tech advantage I've been very frustrated to find that not a single empire seems to have any cash reserves so there's nothing worth selling the tech for. Yet as soon as one other empire learns it quite a few others get it too, implying they seem to find some cash somewhere when another AI nation wants to trade (there are still a couple of small nations who are way behind, so it obviously isn't totally free.)

	05-08-2002 17:01									#3
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It may be changed in 1.29f (I thought only the AI-to-AI trade was tweaked), but in 1.21f it was perfectly possible to get these high gpt deals for techs as well. There used to be a thread in which someone posted a screenshot where an AI offered 850 gpt for a tech, and even if my record wasn't that high, I've seen 300 gpt deals a lot. Selling a tech for in total 800 gpt is not a problem, the only thing is that you need to make sure the AIs have the cash laying around. That's one of the reasons why I either divide the 20 turns into 2 or 3: selling techs every 10 turns wil mean that when one trade is done, the money is still available for the next one. If you need to be faster, selling techs every 6 or 7 turns (making sure that no trades overlap, and there is no gap) is also very good.

In peaceful standard-map games, it is quite easy to receive over 1000 gpt from the AIs, meaning you can put your tech rate to 100% and still have extra cash laying around to rush improvements (on Emperor level, that is. Deity I'm not sure.)

DeepO

	05-08-2002 17:12									#4
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yes, ok, that's is all fine and well...

however, unlike the ai, the human player is a lot more shrewd and able to plan and take into consideration being able to afford gpt deals...

however, the ai isn't quite as gifted at making rational decisions or budgeting accordingly... hence observing India go flat broke and selling off its entire infrastructure in the late game! The ai should be safe-guarded against going flat broke and selling everything... even if its sole purpose would be just to keep late game challenge.

	05-08-2002 17:42									#5
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true... the AI should be more rational in their treasury issues. It has already improved over the original though. I don't think it's an easy thing to code, there are many parameters... I just wanted to point out that it is not always a bad thing if an AI offers you 200 gpt for a tech, if they want to research it themselves the cost can be higher then that. In certain situations, I'll gladly offer 200 gpt for a tech, especially if I don't care about my reputation, and don't intend to keep my promises.

Some AIs wil do this too, but I think this depends on their aggresiveness levels. The Indians might want to keep their deals, even if that means they have to sell off improvements, while the Germans would simply declare war on you. And so far, I haven't seen any games in which AIs will sell off improvements just to get to the needed price, it was always some other thing that caused it after the deal. Needing more lux spending, losing cities, etc...

DeepO

	05-08-2002 17:50									#6
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I've been able to make deals like that before 1.29. The AI doesn't value having a standing treasury like a human player does.

If I'm pulling in 400 gpt, I'll also gladly pay 200 gpt for a useful tech.

	05-08-2002 17:58									#7
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hi ,

they should stop the AI to make certain deals , or put up some limits , sometimes the AI shall buy something , but sell it , so he gets a break , but sometimes the AI starts to sell all off , including hospitals , then the city goes smaller , then there is less money , .....

and yet with one city states , with empty places , they come up with 450 gpt , ............

have a nice day

	05-08-2002 18:10									#8
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yes, very true. It may well be that this isn't specific to 1.29f at all, but i only noticed it with 1.29f because i had so much money to go round investigating the Ai cities...?!

still, if it happens it results in a somewhat challengeless late game.

	05-08-2002 18:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO In peaceful standard-map games, it is quite easy to receive over 1000 gpt from the AIs, meaning you can put your tech rate to 100% and still have extra cash laying around to rush improvements (on Emperor level, that is. Deity I'm not sure.) DeepO

DeepO , I never get better than half decent amount of money for my trade. May I ask your help in a few weeks? I'm about to buy a used car to replace my older one, so I wonder if you can give me some hint for a better negotiation...

(BTW, I'm playing at Monarch level)

	05-08-2002 19:57									#10
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Oh, I'll gladly help, but really, I don't know anything about cars

What the tech trades are concerned: it only works if you build up steadily. Once you get a tech first, and want to play that kind of trading game (conquest is most of the times easier), immediately trade it around. At first, the deals will not be so good, but if you get your next tech within 6 turns, do it again. You will notice that at least some AIs have money again, so you trade it to them again (always go for the best offer first, the value of techs diminishes once more civs know it). Continue until the 20 original turns are gone, and the moment that you don't get that income anymore, trade another tech. This will make sure that your deals are better than the first 20 turns, as the AIs will have at least what they offered you at first, and most of the times have a little more. Continue this for some 40 turns (trading 6 techs), and it will be very hard to not get to 1000 gpt (from the 3 running trades).

Additional advantages is that you will make sure that the AIs research is seriously hampered, so you will stay in front, and will make sure all AIs are dependent on you. Further, very few wars will break out, as they simply do not have any money to spend on their army. And lastly, you will gain a good reputation because of all the trades. I do this a lot when I'm aiming for a diplomatic victory: I will get to fission first, be several techs in front when I get there, and many civs will vote for me even without bribing.

On easier levels, I don't think the awards are as high: if you get to 800 gpt on a standard map Monarch game, I think you have done good. On higher levels, the production bonusses will make sure the AIs have a lot of cash too, which you can than trade for your techs.

Also look out for scientific AIs, when they advance to another era, they will sell their free tech immediately to all others. Sometimes this will mean they can break free from your scheme, setting part of their taxes to tech again. Therefore, when you know the AIs will get to another era, trade to the scientific civs first, and trade to the remaining civs the two techs (the one that gets them to the other age, and the free one) at the same turn. If necessary, give it to them in exchange for their world map, just make sure that there can be no AI-to-AI tech trade. If you are enough in front, the AIs will focus on the optional techs, so make sure you trade for these as well once they're available, and distribute them further to the civs that don't have them yet.

Before I get any complaints on this: this is not an exploit. The AIs will do it too, which is the main reason why in certain games you will see one of them having 20K in gold, while all the rest are strugling to get an even balance. So why not do it yourself, instead of being the victim of such a killer research AI?

DeepO

	05-08-2002 21:23									#11
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There are cases in which one AI gets way ahead of others, piling up gold and research at tremendous speed. If you find yourself facing such an AI, the best thing to do is to go to war and raze that AI's cities. You will find plenty of other AIs who are willing to ally with you. If you have Tanks or MAs, and are thouroughly industrialized, it's pretty easy to cripple that AI Civ in just a few turns.

	05-08-2002 21:28									#12
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I too, have noticed that the AI will give large amounts of gpt. I've been able to get over 2K gpt from AI civs on Huge Maps.

I am not aware of the AI ever selling improvements to satisfy their gpt obligations, however, I haven't really paid that close attention to what the AI is doing w/ its cities/improvements.

As far as a game playability aspect, extorting massive gpt is not an exploit. It may very well be an exploit in terms of the way that you treat the AI civs. i.e. you are exploiting them for gold, but they are getting something in return and they are the ones agreeing to the contract.

If an AI becomes unable to continue his end of the bargain, he will usually declare war to release the contract--sometimes even if it means his destruction.

The AI's will do this to each other, so it is not a game exploit. AND, if you are behind in the Tech Race, they would do it to you!

	06-08-2002 04:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by steven8r If an AI becomes unable to continue his end of the bargain, he will usually declare war to release the contract--sometimes even if it means his destruction.

How do you know this?

	06-08-2002 04:54									#14
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quote: Originally posted by =DrJambo= How do you know this?

That's a really good question. Mostly from gameplay.

I have had gpt deals w/ civs that became 'strapped' financially. Even though they'd been 'Polite to Gracious' w/ me previously, they suddenly became 'Furious' then declared war. They were behind in techs and compared to them, "my military was strong." They had absolutely nothing to gain by declaring war on me, except to cancel a deal that they could no longer afford to pay.

Also, I think I have heard other Apolytoners mention something about this too here on the Forums.

	06-08-2002 10:54									#15
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i recently had an AI do the war option to get out of a contract. they were polite and a serious of deals brought in over 200gpt. the next turn that nation declares war even tho they were half way around the world.

	06-08-2002 13:30									#16
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Absolutely not strange nor new for me. Have a look here

	06-08-2002 16:05									#17
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Nym, I should correct my earlier post, it was this screenshot I was referring to. But I mentioned 850 gpt, I was way off, it is only wines + 520 gpt For a regent game that sure is a lot!

Single deals like that are rare, because the AIs normally do not have that kind of money, but combined deals can add up nicely... I still believe it is one of the best ways of playing a peaceful game.

DeepO

	06-08-2002 16:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO For a regent game that sure is a lot!

It shouldn't make any difference in 1.29f whether it be regent level or not since the AI research rates are now constant over all the difficulty levels. Instead it is the human who is compromised.

	06-08-2002 16:57									#19
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Aha, thanks DrJambo. But as Nym's posted pic was still in 1.21f (IIRC), it matters there

There is one thing where difficulty levels have an influence on how much you can get out of trades, and that is that due to production bonusses it is more likely that AIs have more money on higher levels... but if the cost of techs stay constant, the maximum price you'll get out of a tech of course doesn't change.

DeepO

	06-08-2002 18:48									#20
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hi ,

how far is "accelerated growth" in this , ......

there is some difference in this , when flagged at least there is something in the cities when you caputure them , .....at least there seems to be more

have a nice day

	06-08-2002 22:12									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by DeepO Single deals like that are rare, because the AIs normally do not have that kind of money, but combined deals can add up nicely... I still believe it is one of the best ways of playing a peaceful game.

That is most often the way I try to play: peaceful builder. But as you say, such deals are rare.