05-08-2002 23:09									#31
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quote: The issue is that these men were told to sit in the seminar and listen. It sounds like they chose to defy their orders, in which case a reprimand is fine.

So the next time you have to sit and listen to a seminar, if you can't recite everything the person said, from memory, we should fine you too?

Abridgement of 1st Amendment rights here. Silent protest is allowable ESPECIALLY since these are federal employees.

	05-08-2002 23:13									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Abridgement of 1st Amendment rights here. Silent protest is allowable ESPECIALLY since these are federal employees.

Exactly. Why do you think they won the damages?

	05-08-2002 23:17									#33
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Whats that boss? You want me to do my job? Sorry, I'm going to have a silent protest because thats against my religion to do work.

	05-08-2002 23:18									#34
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quote: Originally posted by drake Whats that boss? You want me to do my job? Sorry, I'm going to have a silent protest because thats against my religion to do work.

I think Im gonna convert.

	05-08-2002 23:20									#35
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Oh whats that? You want to me to touch that gay inmate? No sir. Jesus says that if I touch a gay man, I get the H I V. So sorry boss, I'm going to have a silent protest because jesus tells me thats the right thing to do.

	05-08-2002 23:22									#36
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Strawman alert!!!

	05-08-2002 23:24									#37
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but cal.....Silent protest is allowable ESPECIALLY since these are federal employees!!!!!!!!

	05-08-2002 23:51									#38
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quote: Originally posted by drake but cal.....Silent protest is allowable ESPECIALLY since these are federal employees!!!!!!!!

Now youre just being silly.

	05-08-2002 23:55									#39
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No, what is silly, is that these bigots were awarded money.

	06-08-2002 00:00									#40
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How do you know they were bigots? Dont they have to hate gays to be bigoted? There is no evidence of this in the story.

	06-08-2002 00:03									#41
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No it isn't. They have a religious belief and they performed a silent protest based on that belief. That is constitutionally protected.

Show me a religion that says it is against your religion to work. Jews can't work on the Sabbath, and jobs make allowances for it.

Sorry, you either want freedom of religion or you don't. Can't have both.

	06-08-2002 00:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Instead of wasting company time by forcing people to go to seminars, why not just fire the troublemakers?

Because you generally don't fire people lightly. Especially, as rah pointed out, in the Federal Government.

quote: If they truely must defy those orders then why not fire them instead? Boris, you are full of double standards.

Oh please. What double standard am I positing here? And you are the KING of double standards, Fez. That's what capitalism thrives on, after all.

Imran: If they feel that tolerating gays is against their religious faith, then shouldn't that mean they should seek employment elsewhere? No one's asking them to change their religious beliefs. They're just asking them to do something that is deemed part of their job.

There is no 1st Ammendment protection from hearing things you don't like or agree with, especially in the workplace.

	06-08-2002 00:10									#43
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What is silly is that these "inmates" have been awarded money....They are prisoners damn it. They should not have the same rights as free Americans. They broke the law, so now they have to pay...but instead they (the prisoners) are sueing the penal system out of bordom and the American people end up paying for these "law suits." The American Penal System really needs an over-hull!

	06-08-2002 00:12									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No it isn't. They have a religious belief and they performed a silent protest based on that belief. That is constitutionally protected. Show me a religion that says it is against your religion to work. Jews can't work on the Sabbath, and jobs make allowances for it. Sorry, you either want freedom of religion or you don't. Can't have both.

So I can cite Freedom of Religion and say that my religion forbids me from using electronics (I'm Amish, fine). I therefore can't do my job at work, which requires a computer. Ergo, by your logic, the Federal Government would have to accomodate my beliefs and give me an electronics-free work environment.

Or I can just suck it up and get a job elsewhere that doesn't conflict with my beliefs.

The government is in no way responsible for presenting a work environment that conforms to anyone's religious beliefs, and therefore shouldn't be expected to tolerate someone "opting out" or "protesting" something just because they can hide behind a Bible to say it.

	06-08-2002 00:12									#45
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If they had said, "I don't want to go because I dislike gays" they would have been fired and had no case. But because they pulled out the "religion card", all of a sudden, whoa baby, look out, these guys were slighted! Thier rights were stepped on!

So because these guys used the religion card, you think its ok to refuse doing ones job huh?

Crap is what that is.

	06-08-2002 00:13									#46
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quote: Imran: If they feel that tolerating gays is against their religious faith, then shouldn't that mean they should seek employment elsewhere? No one's asking them to change their religious beliefs. They're just asking them to do something that is deemed part of their job.

Going to a seminar isn't 'part of their job'. It is simply sensitivity training. They decided to silently read their Bibles. They didn't disrupt anything. Instead of pretending to pay attention and nod off as everyone else does, they read.

quote: There is no 1st Ammendment protection from hearing things you don't like or agree with, especially in the workplace.

But there is a 1st Amendment protection to engage in protest.

	06-08-2002 00:13									#47
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Wittlich: I don't think they were prisoners, I think they were prison employees.

	06-08-2002 00:14									#48
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quote: So I can cite Freedom of Religion and say that my religion forbids me from using electronics (I'm Amish, fine). I therefore can't do my job at work, which requires a computer. Ergo, by your logic, the Federal Government would have to accomodate my beliefs and give me an electronics-free work environment.

No, they just don't hire you .

Seminars aren't a part of a job. When you sign on to work, no where does it say, you must attend seminars.

Furthermore, who thinks the people would have been fined if they brought out the Torah and started silently reading from it? Who thinks they would have been fined if they were simply reading a novel because they were bored?

	06-08-2002 00:15									#49
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy The point I try to make is that you're not better than these guys.

You're wrong, we are better than they are.

	06-08-2002 00:23									#50
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quote: Show me a religion that says it is against your religion to work. Jews can't work on the Sabbath, and jobs make allowances for it. Sorry, you either want freedom of religion or you don't. Can't have both.

We can just make up one. Only thing that legitimizes religion is followers. Get enough followers and you got a religion.

I make up a religion and I state in a book I write that my followers must be segregated from women in the workplace. Later on, one of my followers was forced to work in the same room as a woman. Now my follower being the good sheep he is, has a silent protest and refuses to work with the woman. He is fired. He sues the company for violating his rights. He wins. Sound right to you?

You all can say silly all you want, but look at this case. Truly look at this case. Silly is two grown men acting like little kids refusing to hear someone speak about homesexuality. Like its going to hurt them.

	06-08-2002 00:24									#51
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It's the system which leads to these seminars to cover their asses that resulted in them paying off their employees... great fun!

I probably need to attend an excessive litigation sensitivity seminar. Maybe I'll slip and fall on the floor while there and get rich!

	06-08-2002 00:34									#52
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quote: Originally posted by drake We can just make up one. Only thing that legitimizes religion is followers. Get enough followers and you got a religion. I make up a religion and I state in a book I write that my followers must be segregated from women in the workplace. Later on, one of my followers was forced to work in the same room as a woman. Now my follower being the good sheep he is, has a silent protest and refuses to work with the woman. He is fired. He sues the company for violating his rights. He wins. Sound right to you?

The two christians were not doing anything that would cause them to be less effective in their job. All they did was openly ignore what was being said in the seminar. Are you saying it would have been better if they had ignored what was being said without anyone knowing? The reprimand was pointless.

quote: You all can say silly all you want, but look at this case. Truly look at this case. Silly is two grown men acting like little kids refusing to hear someone speak about homesexuality. Like its going to hurt them.

I also think it would be in their best interests to learn about homosexuality, but why should they be forced by their employer? Its not like understanding homosexuality is crucial for them to do their job properly.

	06-08-2002 00:40									#53
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I've run training sessions such as the one described.

My attitude is as follows. If any of my trainees pulled a stunt like that, I'd kick them out of the session and instruct their managers not to send them back until they're willing to behave.

When you sign a contract of employment, you accept certain values the company wishes to promote. You are not forced to take the job. If you choose to take the money, you have to forego certain rights. The seminar was not an unreasonable action by the employer, so if the employees dislike it they can exercise their constitutionally-enshrined right to get off their arses and work somewhere else.

	06-08-2002 00:43									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I see nothing wrong with those two prison employees reading their bibles... the US has freedom of religion.

You don't have the freedom to read your bible in your employer's time. Unless, that is, you like the idea of welfare.

	06-08-2002 00:43									#55
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RJ

quote: Are you saying it would have been better if they had ignored what was being said without anyone knowing?

Yes. Why make a scene? Why not just suck it up and keep your mouth shut? Is hearing about gays for a few hours really worth all this hassle?

Like in a classroom at school, some classes we don't like. But we learn it and we do well anyway. Thats part of being an adult. Sometimes doing things you don't like. (Like going to work every day )

	06-08-2002 00:47									#56
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78 thousand bucks? That's absurd!! Regardless of the topic, the men have a responsibility to pay attention to the seminar. It just sounds like they had better lawyers.

	06-08-2002 01:16									#57
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God, I'm agreeing with RJ and Drake in the same thread.


SOMEBODY HELP ME

Rich

	06-08-2002 01:57									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ron Jeremy I've run training sessions such as the one described. My attitude is as follows. If any of my trainees pulled a stunt like that, I'd kick them out of the session and instruct their managers not to send them back until they're willing to behave.

Sorry old fruit, but thats not the way they do things in the US.

quote: When you sign a contract of employment, you accept certain values the company wishes to promote. You are not forced to take the job. If you choose to take the money, you have to forego certain rights. The seminar was not an unreasonable action by the employer, so if the employees dislike it they can exercise their constitutionally-enshrined right to get off their arses and work somewhere else.

Few jobs in the US have employment contracts, so this was probably not agreed to by them.

	06-08-2002 02:28									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ron Jeremy You don't have the freedom to read your bible in your employer's time. Unless, that is, you like the idea of welfare.

No you have mistaken what I said. If the employer was mad enough and did not like the idea of leaving the two employees out of the seminar, they could of just been fired. And I don't believe in welfare unless there are those purely unabled to find work.

	06-08-2002 02:58									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Few jobs in the US have employment contracts, so this was probably not agreed to by them.

You'd be suprised at how many people in the US have an emplyment contract. All professional sports players, and entertainment professionals. Quite a few other professionals do also. Even though I'm only an IT Director, I signed employement contracts with every company that I've ever worked with. All of my employees at the last two companies had to sign terms of employement agreements. Include some lawyers, doctors, etc. I'd say a majority of white collar workers have signed some type of employment contracts.

Rich
But I agree that these two slouches probably didn't, but you never know with the Government since they so love their paperwork.