05-08-2002 19:16									#1
	Hating gays pays! Support Apolyton

To the tune of 78,000 bucks!

quote: Two prison employees reprimanded for reading their Bibles in silent protest of an employer-sponsored training session on homosexuality have been awarded $78,000 in damages by a federal jury, their attorney said on Friday.

http://news.excite.com/odd/article/...27|reuters.html

Who says the courts in this country aren't ****ed up?

	05-08-2002 19:24									#2
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I'm sure the title will attract Ming's notice also.

Be nice.

Rich

	05-08-2002 19:51									#3
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I just think its funny that these two bigots can hide behind thier bible and then actually be rewarded for it.

Its not like these training sessions were going to tell them that being gay is right...merely to be tolerant I'm sure.

	05-08-2002 20:07									#4
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They dont necessarily 'hate' gays, but you needed an eye-catching thread title didnt you Drake...

	05-08-2002 20:13									#5
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Bigots hiding behind bibles.
Pretty standard conservative religious trick.

Yes it's dissapointing that they were rewarded for it.
They might not necessarily "HATE" but the odds seem to favor that.

Sometimes they follow the letter of the law too much.

Rich

	05-08-2002 20:17									#6
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"Highly Dislike" didn't have the same ring to it no.....

How about a comment on the actual story?

If the meeting was "Blacks in the workplace", and they refused to go citing religious reasons, would you think any differently?

Point is, these people should be held to the same standard as EVERY other employee. Because they believe in a certain thing, it does not give them the right to skip mandatory training sessions does it...particularly ones that are designed to increase tolerance.

	05-08-2002 20:42									#7
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quote: I'm sure the title will attract Ming's notice also.

but we will never be sure if he'll give the same moderator reaction as you just did, and we might all be banned though.

quote: I just think its funny that these two bigots can hide behind thier bible and then actually be rewarded for it.

quote: Bigots hiding behind bibles. Pretty standard conservative religious trick.

calling everybody that doesn't agree with your believe system a bigot makes you both look like a............ bigot!

Why do you want to push your believe system and your moral system through the throat of these people?

	05-08-2002 20:50									#8
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How is telling prison employees that they have to be respectful and tolerant of fellow employees--regardless of their sexual orientation--cramming anything down anyone's throats?

Why are the religious rightists so obsessed with the imagery of something be "crammed" or "pushed" down a "throat" anyway? Seems rather homoerotic...

	05-08-2002 20:52									#9
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I didn't read in the article that these two people did not respect their fellow employees.

besides that, it shows like you do'nt respect them either.

The point I try to make is that you're not better than these guys. I disagree with what they did. It's no good to 'hide' behind your bible that way. The bible is no 'weapon'. But you do not behave any different.

	05-08-2002 20:54									#10
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Really? How would you know that?

Disagreeing with these men (which you yourself do) isn't the same as doing what they did, is it?

	05-08-2002 20:56									#11
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Geeze, wrong side of bed for you this morning Cybershy. (or empty anyway) All I did was repeat and comment on Drake's quote and you have me dissing fellow employees. Maybe you should go back and reread it.

Rich

	05-08-2002 20:58									#12
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quote: Originally posted by drake "Highly Dislike" didn't have the same ring to it no..... How about a comment on the actual story? If the meeting was "Blacks in the workplace", and they refused to go citing religious reasons, would you think any differently?

What religion would that be?

quote: Point is, these people should be held to the same standard as EVERY other employee. Because they believe in a certain thing, it does not give them the right to skip mandatory training sessions does it...particularly ones that are designed to increase tolerance.

"Tolerance" is overrated IMO. What we should really be striving for is to love one another, not to merely "tolerate" each other.

If they are true christians they dont hate gay people because they are taught to "love the sinner, hate the sin.".

Why should their be mandatory training sessions on this topic and not on others? For example a training session that helps others to understand the beliefs of christians. Seems these mandatory sessions are pushing an agenda.

Do you support hate crimes laws drake? This is the same thing.

	05-08-2002 20:59									#13
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bigot - a person who is fanatically devoted to one group, religions, politics or race

one can be a racist, sexist homophobe in the privacy of their home all they want. But they can leave that crap, and their bible, at home when they go to work. Has no place.

	05-08-2002 21:07									#14
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quote: What religion would that be?

Lets call it drakism. Its irrelevent.

quote: "Tolerance" is overrated IMO. What we should really be striving for is to love one another, not to merely "tolerate" each other.

Be great wouldn't it? Never happen however.

quote: Why should their be mandatory training sessions on this topic and not on others? For example a training session that helps others to understand the beliefs of christians. Seems these mandatory sessions are pushing an agenda.

What someone is, and what they believe arent the same thing.

quote: Do you support hate crimes laws drake? This is the same thing.

I do support hate crime laws sure....though I fail to see how this is the same thing

	05-08-2002 21:11									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia What religion would that be?

Mormonism?

Many ultrareligious types use the Bible or Koran or whatever to justify racial bigotry. I think that's what drake was referring to.

	05-08-2002 21:11									#16
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quote: Originally posted by drake bigot - a person who is fanatically devoted to one group, religions, politics or race one can be a racist, sexist homophobe in the privacy of their home all they want. But they can leave that crap, and their bible, at home when they go to work. Has no place.

Neither does politics have any place at work. Homosexuality is a political topic.

	05-08-2002 21:13									#17
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I agree with CyberShy.

This is a first amendment issue.

	05-08-2002 21:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Neither does politics have any place at work. Homosexuality is a political topic.

What?

Homosexuality isn't a political topic first. It may be a part of politics, but first and foremost it's a social issue.

	05-08-2002 21:16									#19
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quote: Originally posted by drake Be great wouldn't it? Never happen however.

I believe it will. Its just gonna take a while.

quote: What someone is, and what they believe arent the same thing.

Many people hate christians, so why not have a mandatory seminar promoting 'tolerance' for them?

quote: I do support hate crime laws sure....though I fail to see how this is the same thing

Hate crimes laws punishes those suspected of 'wrong' thought. Punishing those who refuse to attend a mandatory seminar on a political topic they disagree with is punishing thought also, just by a private entity, not a public one.

	05-08-2002 21:22									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What? Homosexuality isn't a political topic first. It may be a part of politics, but first and foremost it's a social issue.

Its not an issue that people should be forced to discuss in the workplace IMO. If youre going to have a seminar designed to increase cooperation between co-workers, why focus on one small group? Was there a lot of gay-bashing going on beteen these employees? The seminar should focus on teaching respect for one another no matter what, not just focusing on one group.

	05-08-2002 21:22									#21
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I see nothing wrong with those two prison employees reading their bibles... the US has freedom of religion. Anybody can believe in what they want. Now some of you are proposing that freedom of religion and the 1st amendment be repealed? I am atheist but I think people have a right to believe in what they want.

	05-08-2002 21:27									#22
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Fez:

Freedom of private religious behavior doesn't mean you can do whatever you want at work. If these men were ordered to sit in the seminar and listen respectfully and deliberately chose not to, then they have every right to reprimand the men for not doing as they are told.

Cal: Well, if there were instances in the past of incidents whereby homosexuals were harrassed, wouldn't that make the seminar justified?

People seem to be jumping to many conclusions on all sides here...

	05-08-2002 21:31									#23
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So they were not allowed to come up with their own opinion?

Boris, you are the one jumping to conclusions.

	05-08-2002 21:37									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov If these men were ordered to sit in the seminar and listen respectfully and deliberately chose not to, then they have every right to reprimand the men for not doing as they are told.

Would you feel the same way if the seminar was promoting tolerance towards christians?

quote: Cal: Well, if there were instances in the past of incidents whereby homosexuals were harrassed, wouldn't that make the seminar justified?

I dont think so. If someone hates gays you wont change their mind by forcing them to sit through a seminar. However, if they fired from enough jobs for this kind of behaviour they might eventually learn the error of their ways.

	05-08-2002 21:39									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Fez So they were not allowed to come up with their own opinion? Boris, you are the one jumping to conclusions.

What on earth are you talking about? That's not what we're talking about at all.

No one is saying these men can't have their own opinions. The issue is that these men were told to sit in the seminar and listen. It sounds like they chose to defy their orders, in which case a reprimand is fine. No one was reprimanded for having a different opinion.

	05-08-2002 21:44									#26
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Cali: Had there been instances of religious bigotry, I would have no problem with them holding a seminar to discuss religious tolerance (both of those with and without religion).

I tend to give people more credit. Often times people behave in hateful ways out of ignorance, and I've seen them change when confronted with facts. They tend not to realize their actions are so wrong until they are educated a bit. I've seen it happen.

Now, if they had the seminar, and subsequently there were problems from a person, then I'd say they should receive harsher treatment. Let's not go to the hangman from the get-go.

	05-08-2002 21:47									#27
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Instead of wasting company time by forcing people to go to seminars, why not just fire the troublemakers?

	05-08-2002 21:58									#28
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If they truely must defy those orders then why not fire them instead? Boris, you are full of double standards.

	05-08-2002 22:35									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Instead of wasting company time by forcing people to go to seminars, why not just fire the troublemakers?

Because they are prison employees, meaning they are government employees, which in this country means next to impossible to fire.

	05-08-2002 22:40									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Instead of wasting company time by forcing people to go to seminars, why not just fire the troublemakers?

Ah, if it was only that easy. Firing employees is not always that easy in the US, especially federal workers. The cases must me well documented and usually included a period of time for correction. Most employees know how to walk the fine line when put on probation.

And the main reason for theses seminars is not to improve employee relations, but rather to enable the company to look like they did something, when it comes to defending themselves against lawsuits. So these seminars are an investment. This pattern was started with the sexual harrasment sensitivity seminars and have blosomed into many other areas. The company can state they activily prohibit this type of behaviour and actually have seminars to reinforce it.

Sad, but true.

And no I wouldn't mind sesitivity clases aimed at more mainstream religions. Even though companies are doing them to cover their butts, sometimes they actually do some good.

Rich