06-08-2002 04:14									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by rah But I agree that these two slouches probably didn't, but you never know with the Government since they so love their paperwork.

Well I work for the govt, and I didnt sign a contract.

	06-08-2002 06:50									#62
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I agree with CyberShy. This is a first amendment issue.

No it isn't.

They were required to attend (and I'm assuming) pay attention to the seminar. Reading from a Bible while you're supposed to be listening is no better than not attending at all.

	06-08-2002 06:54									#63
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No it isn't. They have a religious belief and they performed a silent protest based on that belief. That is constitutionally protected. Show me a religion that says it is against your religion to work. Jews can't work on the Sabbath, and jobs make allowances for it. Sorry, you either want freedom of religion or you don't. Can't have both.

Imran, this is a stupid argument. If I do start a religion that says I can't speak to black men, does that mean I can get away with it on my job as a matter of freedom of religion?

Obviously not. These guys were told to sit and listen to a seminar. They didn't. It's no better than if they went to sleep at their desk...

	06-08-2002 06:56									#64
	Tired of ads?

If they want to protest outside of work hours, then it's up to them. They can go talk to the media, or light candles outside the prison and sing Kumbayah all they want. If their contract with the employer allows for the employer to force them to attend and pay attention to seminars, then no 1st amendment argument can get them out of it.

	06-08-2002 06:58									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Seminars aren't a part of a job. When you sign on to work, no where does it say, you must attend seminars

It might well. Employers can force you to attend training seminars, sensitivity seminars etc. They are usually forced to pay you for your time (unless you're management), but the compulsion to actually pay attention is there.

	06-08-2002 07:02									#66
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: The two christians were not doing anything that would cause them to be less effective in their job. All they did was openly ignore what was being said in the seminar. Are you saying it would have been better if they had ignored what was being said without anyone knowing? The reprimand was pointless

The employer has decided that this seminar is required in order to increase the effectiveness of guards. If I'm a lab technician working for Merck Frost and my employer decides that I need some training in basic evolutionary biology, then I'm not allowed to not pay attention because I'm a creationist.

If they want to, they can even require that I pass a test after the seminar, and reattend if I flunk...

	06-08-2002 07:03									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

These guys were wrong quite simply. If you want to keep your job, you have to do your job. They should have been fired immediately and the court should have let their employer do their job.

Many if not most of these diversity training meetings are wrong as well. They are CYA for the employer, and often either frighteningly vapid (when run by pro-active organizations) or run by racists / heterophobes etc. (when they are run by reactive organizations) who are terrible examples of tolerance. Either way they claim to be doing something that they are not, and we are all paying the price for that.

	06-08-2002 07:04									#68
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Mormonism? Many ultrareligious types use the Bible or Koran or whatever to justify racial bigotry. I think that's what drake was referring to.

I'm Mormon, and I find this highly offensive.......


Do all homosexual or bisexual people hate Mormons?

	06-08-2002 07:08									#69
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski I'm Mormon, and I find this highly offensive....... Do all homosexual or bisexual people hate Mormons?

Why would they be different than everyone else?

	06-08-2002 07:11									#70
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sikander Why would they be different than everyone else?

Oh, so basically, you hate me for my beliefs?

	06-08-2002 07:16									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Sikander Why would they be different than everyone else?

8/10

	06-08-2002 07:24									#72
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Oh, so basically, you hate me for my beliefs?

No I'm doing a bit of trolling within the framework of a serious post. The serious part is:

Why would you think it possible that all gays and bisexuals hate mormons? Why do you think that Boris would know what all gays and bisexuals think? It seems as though you are extrapolating your inference about one man's opinion to everyone of his class, which is what you are accusing him of. I grant you that he did take a broad shot at mormons, so I understand why you were upset by that. I think it would have been better to lead by example and point out the objectionable quality of Boris' post rather than reacting in the same vein.

	06-08-2002 07:24									#73
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Frogger 8/10

Wow, that's my highest rating ever!

	06-08-2002 07:26									#74
	Got spare money?

I laughed when I read it...

Anyhow, I'm not one who always rates trolls with low marks...

	06-08-2002 07:40									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What's the content of the seminar, exactly?

	06-08-2002 07:46									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Probably something along the lines of "Gays are people too, and please don't shove broom handles up their anuses because then we'll get in trouble".

	06-08-2002 07:49									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yeah, that sounds likely.

	06-08-2002 08:39									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Sikander No I'm doing a bit of trolling within the framework of a serious post. The serious part is: Why would you think it possible that all gays and bisexuals hate mormons? Why do you think that Boris would know what all gays and bisexuals think? It seems as though you are extrapolating your inference about one man's opinion to everyone of his class, which is what you are accusing him of. I grant you that he did take a broad shot at mormons, so I understand why you were upset by that. I think it would have been better to lead by example and point out the objectionable quality of Boris' post rather than reacting in the same vein.

In the same vein as you stated above, why would he think it's possible that all mormons hate gays and bisexuals.

My point was made perfectly clear to you: It's ludicrous to assume that EVERYBODY of a certain race, religion or sexual preference has the same opinion about everything, so in actuality MY troll was better than yours.

	06-08-2002 09:33									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski In the same vein as you stated above, why would he think it's possible that all mormons hate gays and bisexuals. My point was made perfectly clear to you: It's ludicrous to assume that EVERYBODY of a certain race, religion or sexual preference has the same opinion about everything, so in actuality MY troll was better than yours.

Except that my troll was funny, while yours was watered down by your being highly offended.

	06-08-2002 18:36									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Tuberski I'm Mormon, and I find this highly offensive....... Do all homosexual or bisexual people hate Mormons?

Not meant as an offense, but for a time Mormon doctrine was explicitly racist. I was just using it as an example of someone using religious beliefs to justify racism. And I pointed out that other religious sects have done the same. Southerners used the Bible to justify enslaving Blacks, some Muslims use their faith to justify hating Jews, etc.

I'm aware mainstream Mormonism has renounced these tenets, so sorry for the comment.

	06-08-2002 18:38									#81
	Put an end to popups!

Oh, and nowhere does it say these two men were fined. Merely reprimanded for unprofessional conduct. And it was indeed unprofessional. So they get $78,000? For what?

	06-08-2002 18:45									#82
	Got spare money?

For taking advantage of the system. The number 1 participatory sport in the US. I'm sure their lawyers pocketed a good portion of that judgement.

RAH

	06-08-2002 18:51									#83
	Put an end to popups!

Ive changed my mind. Those christians were being arseholes.

	06-08-2002 22:10									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Oh, and nowhere does it say these two men were fined.

I believe it said it in the article.

Cali: Of course they were being arseholes, but so what?

Question: Is protest wrong at work? Then should all unions be disbanded? After all the purpose of unions is protest.

	06-08-2002 22:16									#85
	Remove this text

Protesting like an adult sure.

This involves conversation and some form of debate. People should be entitled to voice thier opinion, but what the employer decides is ultimately what should rule. Not the other way around. If people want to work in a different sort of environment, one that is exactly what they're after, then perhaps they should start running thier own business.

Unions? In my opinion they suck, but thats really a different discussion.

	06-08-2002 22:19									#86
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well... I mean, if you are talking about protesting, unions come to mind immediately. And they were PROTESTING like adults! They were silently protesting, not bothering anyone esle. Yelling slogans and whatnot is protesting like children.

	06-08-2002 22:24									#87
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm saying these guys should have talked to thier boss about this, explained thier reasoning and if the employer lets them off the hook fine. If he doesn't, then these guys should either accept it or quit.

In-subordination is grounds for firing in any field. One can't be allowed to pick and choose what they will and won't do at work. That defeats the whole purpose of having a hierarchy.

	06-08-2002 22:30									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Che might say that is just fine .

And talk to their boss... these are prision guards. They likely don't have good speaking abilites. They god-fearing down home bumpkins .

	06-08-2002 22:36									#89
	Support Apolyton

Heh good point...i can just see them trying to convey thier opinion to thier boss....

"Uh Boss, we uh don't wanna go to that there meetin' cuz we uh, well ummm.....jesus told us that fagz, err homos, err gay people, uh is evil and we uh, don't wanna go. We don't want to be edumacated different see, as that err goes against our faith sir. So can we skip the fag, er, gay meeting boss?"

	06-08-2002 23:05									#90
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ramo What's the content of the seminar, exactly?

The ones I've experienced are pretty pragmatic and don't fanny about. The brutal fact is that some people don't like gays, and no amount of "Hey! Gays are really groovy people! Let's all have a group hug!" is going to change that.

My own courses can be summed up like this-

1- "This is what discrimination to gays looks like".

2- "This sort of discrimination is unacceptable at this company."

3- "If you do it, you'll get fired. Have leaflet."