10-08-2002 04:40									#91
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by finbar I think you're safe. Unless they put in a shocker and the Boks decide to play rugby instead of biffo. The latter, methinks, is very unlikely. They're already publicly promising "aggression".

Remember the hired refs at training, finbar.

I know LDiCesare pointed out problems with it (in training) but despite not being as confident Im still betting on them - as you said -playing rugby instead of biffo.

Well, I dont mind a bit of biffo.

	10-08-2002 05:26									#92
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by NeoStar Remember the hired refs at training, finbar.

As Havak said - biffo's been such a part of their game for so long that it will take a long time to eradicate it. Not that I think they want to anyway.

I suspect the refs were there to do something about the countless penalties the Boks concede. Trouble is, a lot of their penalties are clearly deliberate, contrived to stop the oppo's momentum. It was an obvious tactic in the Wallabies game - Skinstad and the hooker being the major offenders - and the ref warned them about it. A couple of yellow cards here and there will help solve the problem.

	10-08-2002 05:39									#93
	Betting Update Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Sure as eggs, as soon as I post this breakdown of potential winnings, one of our lads will turn up with a bet to change things completely. Regardless, here goes!

Our betting pool stands at 130 Civ Gold.

Your potential winnings (including your original stake, and rounded up or down to the nearest whole figure) currently stand as follows:

LDiCesare 32
NeoStar 49
Tamerlin 49

Caligastia 29
finbar 43
Havak 29
ravagon 29

	11-08-2002 04:33									#94
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The good news:

It was a good game

The bad news:

This is a sad, sad day for rugby union

Last edited by NeoStar on 11-08-2002 at 05:27

	11-08-2002 05:11									#95
	Got spare money?

The Springbok made a great start - James Dalton grabbed the ball at a loose scrum leading to Neil de Kock, put away by the fullbak, scoring in just the 2nd minute.



The kiwis were next to score only a few minutes later after a Mehrtens flash of brilliance. His midfield burst allowed Leon MacDonald the score but then Mehrten's kick was wide leaving SA leading 7-5.



Mehrtons almost got them another one in the 15th minute but Greeff came up with a miracle tackle.



Unfortunately a bit later they conceded a penatly try when Joubert made a duboius high tackle on Umaga who was on his way to score.

Come on, where's the discipline!

SA almost caught up though, when Breyton Paulse touches down but the McHugh blew the whistle for obstruction.

I didn't particulary like it, but its no excuse for the disaster that happened.

Soon after Andre Pretorius secured points with a penalty to make it 12 - 10. Then with the 1st half ebbing away he scored a try and converted. 17 - 12.



They went to sleep though. Umaga surged past the defense offloading to Howlett who scores to leave the game 17-17. They almost went to the lead before the first hooter when NZ were almost given a point blank penalty but McHugh reversed his decision due to an overeager Hewett.



Both Pretorius and Mehrtens exchanged penalities early in the 2nd half but Pretorius gets the Springbok the lead with a crafty drop goal.



They afforded yet another penalty though. Mehrtens squared it 23 - 23 with just over 16 mins left.

So much for the refs at training...

Your typical muscled up All Blacks defense greeted SA for the next stage of play and attack after attack in NZ territory were repelled with a counter attack that paid dividends. 10 minutes from the final whistle Aaron Mauger scores the match winner.

Well there goes my first bet. Can't complain though, they almost came away with it. They matched it with the All Blacks right up to the end.

	11-08-2002 05:20									#96
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by NeoStar This is a sad, sad day for rugby union

As for the big, fat bloke who jumped on David McHugh and dislocated the ref's shoulder - this stuff is getting ridiculous. In Australia we get the odd news of increasing attacks on refs at the grassroots levels by parents - if this stuff starts happening at international level where is rugby going?

It's a bloody disgrace that with the level of professionalism union has achieved this incident could happen. Where was the security? That overweight boof head couldn't have run that fast!

Hats off to the All Blacks and Springbok players who helped pull them apart, but it really isn't a good image for the game.

They better fix the problem for the Wallabies game.

	11-08-2002 06:00									#97
	Support Apolyton

DP.

Last edited by finbar on 11-08-2002 at 06:09

	11-08-2002 06:07									#98
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by NeoStar Unfortunately a bit later they conceded a penatly try when Joubert made a duboius high tackle on Umaga who was on his way to score.

It was a penalty try only in the mind of NH ref McHugh. And, I have to say, it was one of the most incompetent decisions I've seen in Test rugby for a long time.

A penalty try is only awarded when a try would, in all probability, have been scored without the infringement. Umaga was brought down by two Boks - one high, and yes, it was clearly too high; the other around the legs, bringing him down regardless. In other words, probability didn't enter into it. A try would not have resulted without the high tackle. The second tackler - around Umaga's legs - saw to that. The correct decision would have been to penalise the high tackle.

quote: SA almost caught up though, when Breyton Paulse touches down but the McHugh blew the whistle for obstruction.

McHugh's other major clanger. It wasn't obstruction by the Bok hooker. Here are the relevant laws:

quote: (b) Running in front of a ball - carrier. A player must not voluntarily move or stand in front of a team-mate carrying the ball, thereby preventing opponents from tackling the current ball-carrier or the opportunity to tackle potential ball-carriers when they gain possession. (c) Blocking the tackler. A player must not voluntarily move or stand in a position that prevents an opponent from tackling a ball carrier.

The ball was nowhere in the vicinity of the defending players that McHugh said were obstructed. It had already been passed wide. This was just an example of the NH phobia about dummy runners. Sometimes dummy runners do obstruct defenders and they should be penalised. In this case, McHugh got it very wrong and cost the Boks 5 points.

Add that 5 points - there's no guarantee the try would have been converted from that wide - to the gift 7 points from the farcical penalty try, and you can see McHugh's impact on the result of the game.

And I'm obviously not talking through my pocket!

quote: Well there goes my first bet. Can't complain though, they almost came away with it. They matched it with the All Blacks right up to the end.

NeoStar, you won your bet! The margin was 7 1/2 points. The Boks could afford to lose by 7 points or less for you to win your bet. They lost by 7 points! You win!

	11-08-2002 06:15									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by NeoStar As for the big, fat bloke who jumped on David McHugh and dislocated the ref's shoulder - this stuff is getting ridiculous. In Australia we get the odd news of increasing attacks on refs at the grassroots levels by parents - if this stuff starts happening at international level where is rugby going?

Quoting yourself, NeoStar?

Yes, it's ridiculous. Yes, it's outrageous. What if the hoon had a knife or a gun? It just underlines what an appalling lack of judgement it was on Vodaphone's part last week to sanction a pitch invasion.

I also wonder whether the hoon will take legal action against the All Black player - I think it was McCall - who punched him in the face? It's not beyond the realms of possibility. The fact that the hoon was where he shouldn't have been at the time will not be a defence.

All of that aside, it was a stunning game of rugby. Much to my - and, I suspect, Havak's - surprise, the Boks left their mindless aggro and biffo in the sheds and went out to play rugby. At times, I thought they looked a bit like, say, the Fijians - no structure, just run hell for leather - but good on them for it. If they can remember to leave the mindless aggro and biffo in the sheds, they're going to be a real force. The ABs, too, I think, played terrific rugby. I suspect it was their professionalism and structure that got them home. Not to mention ... well, I won't mention their 16th man, the Irishman, I'd hate to be accused of overemphasising a point.

	11-08-2002 06:34									#100
	Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven - Bank A/c at 11/8/02 Suffering from ads?

After last night's match - with a loss for those who backed the ABs and win for those backed the Boks - our Bank A/c stands as follows:

academia 92
Andydog 153
Caligastia 37
finbar 130
Havak 46
LDiCesares 104
Mickeyj 121
NeoStar 134
ravagon 114
Tamerlin 69

Tamerlin can put away his Visa Card for the moment, but Caligastia and Havak should be reaching for theirs.

In terms of the Tri-Nations trophy, the ABs just about have it in the bag. The Wallabies have to score 4 tries next week against the Boks and win by at least 26 points to retain the trophy.

I can only assume that the entire New Zealand nation will be sending champagne and flowers to David McHugh to speed his recovery from his dislocated shoulder. He was, after all, singlehandedly responsible for gifting them at least 12 points in last night's match.

	11-08-2002 07:49									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

CBeast!

	11-08-2002 09:57									#102
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by finbar It was a penalty try only in the mind of NH ref McHugh. And, I have to say, it was one of the most incompetent decisions I've seen in Test rugby for a long time. A penalty try is only awarded when a try would, in all probability, have been scored without the infringement. Umaga was brought down by two Boks - one high, and yes, it was clearly too high; the other around the legs, bringing him down regardless. In other words, probability didn't enter into it. A try would not have resulted without the high tackle. The second tackler - around Umaga's legs - saw to that. The correct decision would have been to penalise the high tackle.

It was quite infuriating, wasn't it? I suppose McHugh may have been thinking Umaga's momentum would have allowed him to fall over the line but as you said the decision should have been a penalty. My only consolation was that if the All Blacks had been able to attack from that position they probably would have scored anyway.

quote: Originally posted by finbar Add that 5 points - there's no guarantee the try would have been converted from that wide - to the gift 7 points from the farcical penalty try, and you can see McHugh's impact on the result of the game.

Those laws you quoted make it seem even more ridicolous. Sure, it was obstruction, but I agree unless the defenders were supermen they couldn't have jumped to the other side of the field.

That made me angry. And a few ppl in the crowd...

quote: Originally posted by finbar NeoStar, you won your bet! The margin was 7 1/2 points. The Boks could afford to lose by 7 points or less for you to win your bet. They lost by 7 points! You win!

Sorry, I keep forgetting the margins

That said, I was still gutted. I think Wallabies now have to win by 25 odd points for the bonus point and the better percentage. Oh dear... :O

quote: All of that aside, it was a stunning game of rugby.

That it was. I liked the way SA brought out a heap of Zulu warriors with their spears when the All Blacks were doing the hakka

	11-08-2002 11:39									#103
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by NeoStar My only consolation was that if the All Blacks had been able to attack from that position they probably would have scored anyway.

That's not the point. As it was, McHugh had missed the AB who was well offside when he charged down the Bok kick which led to the Umaga incident.

	11-08-2002 12:30									#104
	Ahem, excuse me but... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

...you are so wrong.

Soccer is the game they play in heaven.

Rugby is the game they play in hell.

Soccer requires real skill.

Rugby only requires brute force.

Soccer talent is found on the local playing field.

Rugby talent is found at the local All You Can Eat.

The color green is good.

The color red is bad.

Thank You. Have a nice day.

	11-08-2002 12:34									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Funny I thought they'd play skeeball in heaven...

	11-08-2002 12:37									#106
	Re: Ahem, excuse me but... Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by The Rusty Gamer ...you are so wrong. Soccer is the game they play in heaven. Rugby is the game they play in hell. Soccer requires real skill. Rugby only requires brute force. Soccer talent is found on the local playing field. Rugby talent is found at the local All You Can Eat. The color green is good. The color red is bad. Thank You. Have a nice day.

Caligastia? How are you coming along with the filter? We can add Kiwis - well, the soccer enthusiasts, anyway - to its capacity too.

	11-08-2002 12:39									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda Funny I thought they'd play skeeball in heaven...

Caligastia? Tweak the filter to include morons? Thanks muchly.

	11-08-2002 12:41									#108
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

get this pedestrian out of my midst! HE does not know a joke/unsubtle reference to Kevin Smith movie when he hears it!

	11-08-2002 12:49									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda get this pedestrian out of my midst! HE does not know a joke/unsubtle reference to Kevin Smith movie when he hears it!

What Kevin Smith movie? To what and whom are you referring to?

	11-08-2002 14:40									#110
	Re: Ahem, excuse me but... Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by The Rusty Gamer ...you are so wrong. Soccer is the game they play in heaven. Rugby is the game they play in hell. Soccer requires real skill. Rugby only requires brute force. Soccer talent is found on the local playing field. Rugby talent is found at the local All You Can Eat. The color green is good. The color red is bad. Thank You. Have a nice day.

Really? Is that why your 'All Whites' are so good?

Dont we adore soccer players, especially the when Italy wanted to sue Fifa for bad ref calls. We get on with it in rugby.



Isn't it spectacular when players like Rivaldo fall for no reason and have a cry. If a rugby player did that no one would notice.



And don't we all love to worship them when they become so big headed like Keane - who earns 250 000 odd a week - who feels he's too good for his national team. Rugby players are down to earth and share a beer after a game.



What a great sport. Hey rusty gamer , tell it to someone who cares

	11-08-2002 21:03									#111
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by finbar It was a penalty try only in the mind of NH ref McHugh. And, I have to say, it was one of the most incompetent decisions I've seen in Test rugby for a long time. A penalty try is only awarded when a try would, in all probability, have been scored without the infringement. Umaga was brought down by two Boks - one high, and yes, it was clearly too high; the other around the legs, bringing him down regardless. In other words, probability didn't enter into it. A try would not have resulted without the high tackle. The second tackler - around Umaga's legs - saw to that. The correct decision would have been to penalise the high tackle.

The high tackle was what prevented Umaga from scoring. At first I would have agreed with you about the penalty try, but when I saw the game a second time I realised why the penalty try was given. Umaga would have slid over the line if it wasnt for the head-high tackle. The head-high tackle was the only thing that spun him around enough to bring him crashing down 1ft away from the line. It was a fair call IMO. Even if it had only been a penalty awarded, it would have been an easy 3 points for mehrtens to kick, and NZ still would have won.

quote: McHugh's other major clanger. It wasn't obstruction by the Bok hooker. Here are the relevant laws: The ball was nowhere in the vicinity of the defending players that McHugh said were obstructed. It had already been passed wide. This was just an example of the NH phobia about dummy runners. Sometimes dummy runners do obstruct defenders and they should be penalised. In this case, McHugh got it very wrong and cost the Boks 5 points.

The try wouldnt have been scored anyway because the All Blacks that were defending against Paulse had seen the ref blow his whistle (even if they didnt hear it) and stopped playing.

	11-08-2002 21:09									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by finbar Caligastia? Tweak the filter to include morons? Thanks muchly.

Im starting to think we really need something to keep out the know-nothings

	11-08-2002 21:13									#113
	Re: Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven - Bank A/c at 11/8/02 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by finbar I can only assume that the entire New Zealand nation will be sending champagne and flowers to David McHugh to speed his recovery from his dislocated shoulder. He was, after all, singlehandedly responsible for gifting them at least 12 points in last night's match.

Do I detect a hint of sour grapes?

Youre totally wrong about David McHugh, I think he did a great job till he was tackled by that idiot springbok supporter. By the way, I hope he got a good kicking in the back room for what he did.

Good onya McCaw for giving him a punch in the face.

	12-08-2002 05:31									#114
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The high tackle was what prevented Umaga from scoring. At first I would have agreed with you about the penalty try, but when I saw the game a second time I realised why the penalty try was given. Umaga would have slid over the line if it wasnt for the head-high tackle. The head-high tackle was the only thing that spun him around enough to bring him crashing down 1ft away from the line. It was a fair call IMO. Even if it had only been a penalty awarded, it would have been an easy 3 points for mehrtens to kick, and NZ still would have won.

I've watched it half a dozen times. He wasn't going to slide over the line. The tackle around his legs precluded that. The only way he'd have got over the line would have been via a double movement. Regardless, the AB charge-down that led to Umaga getting the ball was from an offside position.

quote: The try wouldnt have been scored anyway because the All Blacks that were defending against Paulse had seen the ref blow his whistle (even if they didnt hear it) and stopped playing.

Nup. Sorry.

	12-08-2002 05:44									#115
	Re: Re: Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven - Bank A/c at 11/8/02 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Do I detect a hint of sour grapes?

Far from it! I backed the ABs! And the Wallabies were always going to be struggling to make up the points difference, anyway, after the differences in the margins between the AB win over the Boks and our win over the Boks. Basically, we're going to pay for our fade-out in the Boks match. Serves us right.

As I said in one of my other posts, it was a brilliant game of rugby. The ABs played a great game. Countering the Boks playing as they were - so unpredictably, running from all over the place - was enormously difficult.

I do wonder, though, how long Justin Marshall can hold his place in front of Byron Kellaher. I know Marshall and Mehrtens are Crusaders team-mates and therefore an established combination, with the bonuses that brings, but I think Kellaher's a super player - better tactically than Marshall, and definitely more aggressive.

quote: Youre totally wrong about David McHugh, I think he did a great job till he was tackled by that idiot springbok supporter. By the way, I hope he got a good kicking in the back room for what he did.

His clangers aside, I think he did a reasonable job. It's just that his clangers were big ones. I'll be interested to hear the NH opinion, though, because I think he missed offside play (from both sides) - a common NH complaint about SH refs - and he seemed to vary the time he'd allow a tackled player on the ground to release the ball. To be perfectly honest, I think the speed of the game - and it was played at an extraordinary tempo - might have caught him out of position more than once.

quote: Good onya McCaw for giving him a punch in the face.

I think it was perfectly understandable. It's just - legally - a dangerous thing to do.

	12-08-2002 10:34									#116
	Re: Re: Re: Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven - Bank A/c at 11/8/02 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by finbar As I said in one of my other posts, it was a brilliant game of rugby. The ABs played a great game. Countering the Boks playing as they were - so unpredictably, running from all over the place - was enormously difficult.

Bah humbug.
After not starting until 11:45pm (local time), when the [bleep]in match had actually finished, my reception went from bad to worse and I finally had to give up and turn the darned thing off before the end of the first half.
Up until this point I had been enjoying a thoroughly entertaining match too.

Overall the penalty try was one thing I did actually agree with, but then I tend to think a number of other such instances go unpunished. Consistency among referees being somewhat lacking (shock, horror ) I guess. C'est la vie.

It'll make for an interesting match next weekend though. Anybody have the required margin for the wallabies to win and take the cup ((?) I've forgotten whether it is actually a cup. heh)?
Will they go all out right from the start and risk losing the match in an attempt to take the series?

	12-08-2002 10:46									#117
	Re: Re: Ahem, excuse me but... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by NeoStar Really? Is that why your 'All Whites' are so good?

A very bold statement there if I may say so. Or did you perhaps miss the results from the last encounter between the All-whites and the Socceroos?

quote: And don't we all love to worship them when they become so big headed like Keane - who earns 250 000 odd a week - who feels he's too good for his national team.

*cough* Christian Vieri (sp?) *cough*

Its not really the same thing to compare the two sports. Soccer is much more marketable in Europe and players naturally earn more and have to take more notice of their clubs needs over their nations. If they're injured its the club that foots the bill in lost wages for idle players.
Very similar to grid iron/basketball in the states.
"With great salary comes great responsibility".

	12-08-2002 12:17									#118
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven - Bank A/c at 11/8/02 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by ravagon Bah humbug. After not starting until 11:45pm (local time), when the [bleep]in match had actually finished, my reception went from bad to worse and I finally had to give up and turn the darned thing off before the end of the first half. Up until this point I had been enjoying a thoroughly entertaining match too.

I wonder if they'll show next week's match - in which we are involved - at anything approaching the real time? I suspect not, unfortunately for you. I can't see them interrupting primetime Saturday night programming for rugby. As it is, here in Sydney, 7 showed it on a half-hour delay. I actually watched it in real time on FoxSports with Bok commentators.

quote: It'll make for an interesting match next weekend though. Anybody have the required margin for the wallabies to win and take the cup ((?) I've forgotten whether it is actually a cup. heh)? Will they go all out right from the start and risk losing the match in an attempt to take the series?

Of course they will. There's no prize for second. The Wallabies have to score 4 tries (for the bonus point) and win by 26 points to overcome the points difference with the ABs.

	12-08-2002 12:18									#119
	Re: Re: Re: Ahem, excuse me but... Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by ravagon A very bold statement there if I may say so. Or did you perhaps miss the results from the last encounter between the All-whites and the Socceroos?

Enough with the soccer already!

	12-08-2002 13:07									#120
	Re: Re: Re: Ahem, excuse me but... Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by ravagon A very bold statement there if I may say so. Or did you perhaps miss the results from the last encounter between the All-whites and the Socceroos?

A division three Socceroos - stupid Soccer Australia

Don't mind me on that post, I just went off at the rugby bagger. Soccer's a good sport, but I dislike the politics...

We better not go on for finbar's sake

Anyone catch that Sharkies game? They're the only league team I follow. That 1st half was the most perfect half of football I've seen in that code 40 0dd - zip.

Back on the main game - well Jones seems to be confident we can get the 25 points needed. Can't help be worried though, if the Springbok play like that again...