13-01-2003 15:08									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Who cares if it was published or not ? Marx was already familiar with concepts such as materialism and material/merchant value, else, he wouldnt have been asked to write the manifesto.

1) When did these concepts exist before Das Kapital?
2) Why would he have not specified this, when the basic definitions of Industrial and Material Production (Not the socialist definition of Material Production) are synonomous. Find a common labourer back then who would've been able to make the differentiation without such.

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak You're misreading it, any neutral reader of Marx will clearlyread that Marx wants to abolish child labour, and not pretend that he actually supports it in another form. Anyway, I can give you this link. If you need another, just precise what you look for.

Bullshit. It was this specific section and indeed that specific phrase which killed my Marxist leanings almost 5 years ago. I was biased *TOWARDS* him and I still instantly saw it the other way.
Remember, "in its present form." Apparently he's got nothing against it, only the present form of it. And then he goes on in his next sentance to describe his view of how Child Labour should be. Or should I add "Paragraphing and sentance structure" to the list of things you can't understand?

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak No, on the contrary, thats the whole point. Quite obvious actually.

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak No, material production is all kind of work that increase merchant value, not only service industries. Are you sure you read Das Kapital ?

It's been 4 years since I've read it cover to cover. I should have been more exact in my response. However......you've failed to consider one thing. Material Production in how you define it is a very broad definition. There's a lot of different jobs there. Just how many can be done in a school environment? Sales? No. Freight? No. Labour? YES.

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Marx didnt authorized it, he was dead in 1888, IIRC. Anyway, heres a good quote from Engels : since you have the 1888 edition, you probably read the preface, here's a quote : ...... for that reason, no special stress is laid on the revolutionary measures proposed at the end of Section II ......

Just because he was dead at the time it was published doesn't mean he didn't authorize it.

for that reason, no special stress is laid on the revolutionary measures proposed at the end of Section II

Yes, I'm aware of this. Even he was horrified by the statements of Marx about Child labour and splitting up the nuclear family. Which is why he tried to marginalize them when he wrote this preface.

	14-01-2003 13:59									#452
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quote: Originally posted by Archaic 1) When did these concepts exist before Das Kapital?

1)These concepts existed when the International Worker's Association was founded and asked Marx and Engels to write the manifesto, so the concepts -- the basic of the concepts, actually -- were very familiar to the whole labour class of the time.

quote: 2) Why would he have not specified this, when the basic definitions of Industrial and Material Production (Not the socialist definition of Material Production) are synonomous. Find a common labourer back then who would've been able to make the differentiation without such.

See above, the concept very know by all the communists, that existed before Marx. And if you cant make the differenece between the two, well I really cant help.

quote: Bullshit. It was this specific section and indeed that specific phrase which killed my Marxist leanings almost 5 years ago. I was biased *TOWARDS* him and I still instantly saw it the other way. Remember, "in its present form." Apparently he's got nothing against it, only the present form of it.

In a communist point of view you cant let anyone idle, and his vision is to abolish child labour as it was in its present form, and to replace it by an education of work. The fact is that there is really a difference between "child working" and "child labour" in english, while in French or in German, there is none, so in its original language, the structure of the whole paragraph makes sense : he considers education to work as child work/labour, as arbeit.

quote: And then he goes on in his next sentance to describe his view of how Child Labour should be. Or should I add "Paragraphing and sentance structure" to the list of things you can't understand? It's been 4 years since I've read it cover to cover. I should have been more exact in my response. However......you've failed to consider one thing. Material Production in how you define it is a very broad definition. There's a lot of different jobs there. Just how many can be done in a school environment? Sales? No. Freight? No. Labour? YES.

This is no labor at school, this is a combination : be at school and learn to work, ie learn a job.

quote: Just because he was dead at the time it was published doesn't mean he didn't authorize it.

Yes, definetly. He gave the authorization by some way, though he was dead. Frankly, I dont see how he can have authorized a translation while he was dead.

quote: for that reason, no special stress is laid on the revolutionary measures proposed at the end of Section II Yes, I'm aware of this. Even he was horrified by the statements of Marx about Child labour and splitting up the nuclear family. Which is why he tried to marginalize them when he wrote this preface.

Splitting up the nuclear family is not on that part, the preface is here talking about the conclusion of the second part of the manifesto, the ten points that concludes the chapter "Proletariat and Communists". And he's not trying to marginalize them for any other reason than the ones Marx said precisely before he opened the list : these measures will be different for each country. Engels add himself that faced to the latest events in the world and the general organization of the labouring class, a large part of these measures is now outdated.

Anyway, if your really want to remain stubborn and unintelligent with Marx, then theres nothing I can explain you that will change your mind : as you said yourself, you're biased towards him and it is anyway obvious to anyone that you refuse to understand that Marx never advocated child labour.

	14-01-2003 14:49									#453
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quote: Yes, definetly. He gave the authorization by some way, though he was dead. Frankly, I dont see how he can have authorized a translation while he was dead.

Three questions that have to be asked on that point:

1) When did he die?

2) When was the translation begun?

3) Could he have authorized the translation before he died?

	15-01-2003 14:04									#454
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1) In 1883

2)The first English translation, by Miss Helen Macfarlane, appeared in George Julian Harney's Red Republican, London, 1850. I have no clue when the last translation, the one you have in english (Moore translation, IIRC) has begun.

3)Theres a reasonable doubt, though I believe the Moore translation, auhtorized by Engels, wasnt started during Marx was alive.

Anyway, all these informations were in the preface, and I seriously advice you to read it, this is an important source of informations on all we are talking about.

	15-01-2003 14:21									#455
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The link which you provided to the Preface didn't mention when the Moore translation was started, which is the main question. However, one has to ask: Why would Engel have authorized a translation that indicated MArx's support of child labour, any more than Marx? If the correct term was in fact 'material', rather than 'industrial', why would he have not corrected this?

	15-01-2003 23:10									#456
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Simply the fact that you're the only ones to read it as a support of child labour doesnt make it a support of child labour.

It has never been intented to support child labour, so I guess Engels simply didnt took the time to check between material and industrial, thinking that people would think it supports child labour instead of understanding materialism and apprenticeship. But no one can be sure.

	16-01-2003 00:00									#457
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Here's the new Thread for the CCCP

	16-01-2003 05:48									#458
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In that case, it's the end for this one.