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Schinkenjoe
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Itīs time to give life to an Marxian idea: The thing with the two phases. Letīs say the planetfall was something like an revolution. The old society doesnt live anymore, a new equitably industrialisation can be started. The wealth produced by society can be distributed in a fair way. But before all wealth can be shared it must be produced and kept safe, cause you canīt fill needs with nothing.
For this initial process the First Phase is made. In it the society is allowed to impose restrictions on their members, but only in democratic way. Democracy should be a science aim and not be taken with by the way.
We now got with our constitution a very high democratic level.
In the First Phase Free Market and Planned Economy are allowed, cause they create wealth more quickly than the other economic systems.
I personal tend towards Planned Economy.
And because this is a dangerous world with possibly unfriendly other factions and lifeforms a little army should be set up to save our democracy.
But one time a moment will come in which a quantity level of wealth is reached that enables living in a new Quality. There is no more need for an hierarchic, freedom restricting planned economy or an unequitable distribution of energy. The productivity mustnt be adjusted in that measure any more and can be used to fulfill the basic needs of the masses.
What a basic need is and what not is defined by the productive possibilities of the society.
The Second Phase has started.
In it there should be admitted as much freedom as possible to the individuum. As many fdacilities as possible will be built and the cities will be kept in Golden Ages.
Ideal for this stadium are Simple Economy and Green Economy.
Iīm preffering Simple cause in it means of production are connected directly with the producer.
But also Green is a good choice, but Iīm not sure about it, cause Green is such a neutral value. Also a system of slavery can have green priorities. Before choosing it we should come to an Agreement what exactly Green Economy means.
In the Second Phase a overdimensioned army exists only because of the leading talents' obsession of power. It isn't made for securing the reached but for bringing more slaves under the power of these despots.
And the aditional wealth we would get by keeping the First Phases' economy systems isnīt worth the freedom which would be blocked by these systems.
May the Second Phase come as soon as possible, my comrades.
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Schinkenjoe
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I donīt like FM either, although it gives "turn advantage" It is a bad economy ( in the sense of freedom, not in the game ), but i also think the planned isnīt much better.
I also donīt want to prescribe the others , which wconomy they must take in which phase, ( Lucky said, he would think about FM in early game. )
But it would be nice if they take over the Two Phases - System, because so we have a good standing point aginst your "turn advantage" arguments.
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Method
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/me goes to France
Feb 2001
time: 00:21
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i don't want to get into it again but you don't have pops that soon, and you don't get a PSI defence penalty or have a more frequent occurence of worms in market.
in fact, free market does seem to be a better choice in the early game, although i stick with planned for now. i'm playing morgan right now so i have to run market (or green which i'm considering) so that's the only thing that caused me to rethink my opinion here.
i ask, have you ever tried free market in SP, or do you just think you know what it's like? personally, i wouldn't ever use it until i tried it once, and was so pleased with the research rate, i never went back.
if you think i should erradicate this post since it disrupts your thread that's fine, but i just had to respond to that, mainbrain.
PS: core, the only capitalist pigs here are the capital party, and they're pretty inactive. so you have nothing to worry about  
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Thorsius
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Yeah, I'm here and voting lucky22. I know I'm not exactly the most active in posting, but I'm watching it closely. And I agree also with Main_Brain for the most part about FM, although if we were Morgans I might feel differently.
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Main_Brain
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Economic World Center
Jul 2002
time: 06:21
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@TKG is that quote form Fred Dales at Microsoft Corp. in
Redmond, WA. ?
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Pandemoniak
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of Xanadu, French Section of the Apolyton Must Crush Capitalism Party
Jul 2002
time: 06:21
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If other members of the CCCP agree, I declare themagicbanana banned from the CCCP.
quote:
Originally posted by lucky22
My support for FM originally arose from a desire to reflect the process Marx and Engels referred to as "primitive accumulation"- the process whereby conquest and colonial mercantilism put all the industrial capital into place over the course of about a millenium.
Upon reflection, simulating primitive accumulation is more of a job for CIV, I'd say. Right now, I am commited to endorsing the development of successful strategies that do not employ FM. It is not much of a stretch to present that as a basic sort of challenge game.
I won't quit or anything if FM is voted in, but I'll keep letting everyone know that under FM not all the kids get equal amounts or equal qualities of Legos, and it isn't because their mums and pops are lazy sods.
Welcome Corellion!
By the way: Gnool has posted recently in at least one game-play related thread. Thorsius is likely to be around and voting (I hope) . Has any one heard from themagicbannana since he ran for every directorate? 
Are you out there Thorsius and tmb? |
About FM : You all know I'm more a "bakuninian" than a "marxist", though its all quite similar. Anyway, the main problem with FM is that me must eradicate the State itself before we apply it, so that we can avoid mistakes such as protectionism, governments directed by militaro-fungal lobbies, etc... The Free Markets are a good idea in itself : despite that, the theories elaborated by the Industrial Economics wont allow us to free the people freeing the markets, on the contrary. The application of theses theories involve not only ecological damage for the sake of energy, but will mostly unsatisfy our citizens.
I would sum up that shortly :
I wont support Free Market until all factions gather again, in any way.
Pandemoniak,
Conversation between Bakunin and Planet
If other members of the CCCP agree, I declare themagicbanana banned from the CCCP.
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Schinkenjoe
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Sorry it seems like a silly question, but why is Planned economy always considered better ideolgically than FM ?
In both systems many persons have to fulfill the decisions of few, in Planned the decisions come from state authority, in FM from the energy monopolists.
Both arenīt economy systems of freedom.
The only advantage is that Planned can be abolished much easier than FM, but only if the control lies in hands, which want to abolish it.
Justs because the Soviets took Planned along for 70 years, we mustnīt do the same mistake. And it was a mistake, because the intention of not giving up Planned was not to give up their control over society and they justfied their rule only through productivity and terror.
The crucial question is if there is a mayority to run Green.
Your opinion ?
P.S.: that banning seems ok to me.
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Pandemoniak
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of Xanadu, French Section of the Apolyton Must Crush Capitalism Party
Jul 2002
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Schinkenjoe
Sorry it seems like a silly question, but why is Planned economy always considered better ideolgically than FM ?
In both systems many persons have to fulfill the decisions of few, in Planned the decisions come from state authority, in FM from the energy monopolists.
Both arenīt economy systems of freedom.
The only advantage is that Planned can be abolished much easier than FM, but only if the control lies in hands, which want to abolish it.
Justs because the Soviets took Planned along for 70 years, we mustnīt do the same mistake. And it was a mistake, because the intention of not giving up Planned was not to give up their control over society and they justfied their rule only through productivity and terror.
The crucial question is if there is a mayority to run Green.
Your opinion ?
P.S.: that banning seems ok to me. |
Well, the thing is that soviets were running on planned and police state : therefore, the planification of production and thus the planification of economy itself was made by a few controlling the others citizens. On the contrary, running under planned in a free democracy is rather like the Paris Commune : the plans are made by the state, that IS the citizens. So yes, a planned economy can free, running under democracy.
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05-09-2002 02:22
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