09-09-2002 03:36									#181
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Under industrial capitalism, necessities such as food and optional commodities such as AC are traded for using units of the same artificial and abstracted value system. Life itself is a consumeristic reification- no one is equipped to live unless he or she is equipped to shop. FM reflects this reality in its utterly unregulated form. This irrationality is considered a reflection of "natural law" by minds raised within consumerism and with a vested interest in maintaininhg its existence.
Planned economies deal with access to resources in acute circumstances more effectively, but wind up undermined by opposed military/industrial/entertainment complexes.

I personally am not an anarchist- individual freedom is an abused concept in the modern west, and until equilibrium is restored at even the individual level, I consider a concern with "doing whatever one wants whenever one wants to" to be a decadent value. On the other hand I play AC, so obviously ideology and
practice are somewhat seperated by personal weaknesses.

quote: Schinkenjoe writes: The crucial question is if there is a mayority to run Green

Agreed.

(I abstain on banning tmb, though I fully accept all conditions of Aplyton citizenship without reservation. If he is banned by a higher power for improper mischief, so be it)

	09-09-2002 04:05									#182
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quote: Originally posted by lucky22 I personally am not an anarchist- individual freedom is an abused concept in the modern west, and until equilibrium is restored at even the individual level, I consider a concern with "doing whatever one wants whenever one wants to" to be a decadent value. On the other hand I play AC, so obviously ideology and practice are somewhat seperated by personal weaknesses.

Anarchy si not : "doing whatever one one wants whenver one wants to ", it s about deleting hierarchy itself. See Chomsky or Highleyman for more informations.

quote: (I abstain on banning tmb, though I fully accept all conditions of Aplyton citizenship without reservation. If he is banned by a higher power for improper mischief, so be it)

So be it, Vendetta upon him !
(maybe I played SMAC too much ?)

	09-09-2002 04:13									#183
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sorry if i made it look that way, but to my knowledge, wasn't permabanned. look here and here. apparently he made numerous posts of this nature including posts like "u suck", "u ppl r barabarians.u suck." and "the usa sux major arse...."

	09-09-2002 04:18									#184
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...


and thats why he's banned from both poly and the CCCP

	09-09-2002 04:22									#185
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again, not sure if he's banned completely from poly. could just be a week or something.

	09-09-2002 04:24									#186
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He hasnt been seen on any CCCP forum in many weeks, so except if tmb shows himself in the newt week, he is banned forever from the Citizen's party.

	09-09-2002 05:02									#187
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Foreman Pandemoniak annoucement :

Comrade Tassadar left us.

This is a painful thing to say, but our Comrade left us. I've been talking with him, and he said that he left the CCCP because he was supporting Free Market for science, and because he believe parties are dreadful for a democracy.

I answered him : we in the CCCP dont have a party line, and our party is only made to discuss marxism, but he chose to left us anyway.

[...]

Tassadar is our Comrade anyway, and I give him all my support.
May Comrades Marx and Engels be with him.

	09-09-2002 19:50									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Anarchy si not : "doing whatever one one wants whenver one wants to ", it s about deleting hierarchy itself. See Chomsky or Highleyman for more informations.

I'm completely aware of Anarchy as a modern philosophy. There is currently a popular perversion of it as a life-stlyle here where I live, and it winds up being the same old hippie crap- total libertarianism in pseudo political disguise. This "anarchy" owes more to the Russian Anarcho-Nihilist terrorists of the late 19th and early 20th centuries than to anything approaching Marx' post-industrial ideal. Obviously, the Russian model of Nihilist was an historical harbinger of a necessary revolution, but the current manifestation keeps all the disregard for social reproduction of the conditions of existence and just about none of the requirements for depth of character. On a tactical, one-to-one in the street level, I therefore must remain a structuralist (upon which statement, I'd recommend Chomsky also, along with Louis Althusser ).

	09-09-2002 20:09									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak Foreman Pandemoniak annoucement : Comrade Tassadar left us. ... Tassadar is our Comrade anyway, and I give him all my support. May Comrades Marx and Engels be with him.

Man, what a bummer. All the best to him.

	09-09-2002 22:52									#190
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Mhh should'nt we try to eliminate Parties?

	10-09-2002 01:29									#191
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To Main_Brain, I dont see the use to disband parties, as long as they dont ruin the game.

To Lucky22, structuralism and anarchism are not necessary uncompatible. There can be a structure in anarchism (and there has been one during the Paris Commune), as long as its not hierarchical. Refer to Bakunin's comments on the Marxist proletarian revolution theory for more informations.

	10-09-2002 02:28									#192
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Main_Brain raises a good question. Pandemoniak, as you are against the concept of state, how can you support the concept of parties? Or is it just a temporary organization to achieve to goal of destroying the state?

	10-09-2002 02:35									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak To Lucky22, structuralism and anarchism are not necessary uncompatible. There can be a structure in anarchism (and there has been one during the Paris Commune), as long as its not hierarchical.

I agree completely.

quote: Refer to Bakunin's comments on the Marxist proletarian revolution theory for more informations.

I will go ahead and follow up on that Bakunin, and recommend The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon, one of my very favorites- Marx' observation that one of the great prizes of modern revolutions is possession of the bureaucracy is a classic. I don't believe true anarchy can or wants to abandon a complex division of labor.
I suppose I just get annoyed when shiftless cretins claim Anarchy when all they want is freedom from discipline. Discussions on this topic can make some of the FM vs Planned stuff here at 'Poly look downright tame, as I'm sure you are aware.

	10-09-2002 02:44									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Main_Brain raises a good question. Pandemoniak, as you are against the concept of state, how can you support the concept of parties? Or is it just a temporary organization to achieve to goal of destroying the state?

Party platforms focus the power of sympathetic voters on specific issues very effectively in a voting democracy. So yes, not to answer for Pan, but until our offspring evolve beyond the need for artifices such as the State (or faction) such organizations are of great utility. Unfortunately, not every voter has the time or inclination to be absolutely informed regarding every issue he or she has the responsibility of voting on.

	10-09-2002 03:13									#195
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quote: Originally posted by lucky22 Party platforms focus the power of sympathetic voters on specific issues very effectively in a voting democracy.

Until there I agree.

quote: So yes, not to answer for Pan, but until our offspring evolve beyond the need for artifices such as the State (or faction) such organizations are of great utility. Unfortunately, not every voter has the time or inclination to be absolutely informed regarding every issue he or she has the responsibility of voting on.

There I say no, parties are not a step before the dissolution of state. Its organized and structured in a non-hierachical manner : the sioux political system is a good example : the Pow Wow organizes debate, and wiser members of the tribe are called or can come to discuss. Then the Pow Wow makes a decision, and every citizen of the tribe is free to apply it or not. Parties are (for some) or should be (for many) a community that shares common ideas, and discuss it and let everyone act freely. A party is just like a room in which people sit and discuss.

This famous disctinction between anarchism and marxism is founded by the very own concept of marx : "raise the proletarian as a dominant class". This is strictly revolutionnary : meaning like in "revolving" : things up goes down, and things down go up. These ideas are part of "The Revolt" from Albert Camus.

	10-09-2002 03:16									#196
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quote: Originally posted by lucky22 I will go ahead and follow up on that Bakunin, and recommend The 18th Brumaire of Louis Napoleon, one of my very favorites- Marx' observation that one of the great prizes of modern revolutions is possession of the bureaucracy is a classic. I don't believe true anarchy can or wants to abandon a complex division of labor.

I gotta check out that. That might takes time.

quote: I suppose I just get annoyed when shiftless cretins claim Anarchy when all they want is freedom from discipline. Discussions on this topic can make some of the FM vs Planned stuff here at 'Poly look downright tame, as I'm sure you are aware.

I just cant bear people who speak of anarchy in these terms. To my ears, it sounds like "transcendance is gay". Unbearable.
And I forget the idea of speaking about anarchy in the OT forum, just saying the word makes ten posts calling you a terrorist. No way to discuss.

	10-09-2002 04:16									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak There I say no, parties are not a step before the dissolution of state. Its organized and structured in a non-hierachical manner : the sioux political system is a good example : the Pow Wow organizes debate, and wiser members of the tribe are called or can come to discuss. Then the Pow Wow makes a decision, and every citizen of the tribe is free to apply it or not. Parties are (for some) or should be (for many) a community that shares common ideas, and discuss it and let everyone act freely. A party is just like a room in which people sit and discuss.

Do you recall Durkheim's distinction between "communism" (similar in French to "communalism" I believe) and "socialism"? The Sioux (and our own CCCP) are a fine example of the first form of organization but did not account for complex division of labor.

quote: This famous disctinction between anarchism and marxism is founded by the very own concept of marx : "raise the proletarian as a dominant class". This is strictly revolutionnary : meaning like in "revolving" : things up goes down, and things down go up. These ideas are part of "The Revolt" from Albert Camus.

If "The Revolt" is the same as "The Rebel", then as I recall Camus dismissed Marx' ultimate vision as having shown itself to be nieve, leading to his big blow-up with Sartre. I thought "The Rebel" was a great, great book. It introduced me to the details of pre-revolutionary Russian nihilism.

	10-09-2002 04:21									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak I just cant bear people who speak of anarchy in these terms. To my ears, it sounds like "transcendance is gay". Unbearable.

Forgive my misunderstanding here- discussing Anarchy in terms of escape from discipline or discussing Anarchy in terms of the people who discuss it in terms of escape from discipline? That is, if I am being unbearable, please pardon me.

quote: And I forget the idea of speaking about anarchy in the OT forum, just saying the word makes ten posts calling you a terrorist. No way to discuss.

It sure does get loud in there.

	10-09-2002 12:53									#199
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quote: Originally posted by lucky22 Do you recall Durkheim's distinction between "communism" (similar in French to "communalism" I believe) and "socialism"? The Sioux (and our own CCCP) are a fine example of the first form of organization but did not account for complex division of labor. If "The Revolt" is the same as "The Rebel", then as I recall Camus dismissed Marx' ultimate vision as having shown itself to be nieve, leading to his big blow-up with Sartre. I thought "The Rebel" was a great, great book. It introduced me to the details of pre-revolutionary Russian nihilism.

The french title is "L'Homme Révolté", the revolted man. Its in this book that there is this famous proverb : "I revolt, therefore we are".

	10-09-2002 12:57									#200
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quote: Originally posted by lucky22 Forgive my misunderstanding here- discussing Anarchy in terms of escape from discipline or discussing Anarchy in terms of the people who discuss it in terms of escape from discipline? That is, if I am being unbearable, please pardon me.

I meant : some persons claims themselves anarchists, but just want tsome other kind of discipline or are actually nihilists. Some others dont claim themselves anarchist, but consider it the same. I cant bear persons who say "I m anarchist : lets throw stones at glasses", etc... neither can I bear persons who "use" anarchism only in order to apply a new kind of discipline.
Nothing related to you, AFAIK, you see.

	10-09-2002 15:01									#201
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Post 200

	10-09-2002 19:23									#202
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For our 201th post birthday, I suggest this logo for the CCCP.

Attachment: cccplogo.gif
This has been downloaded 87 time(s).

	10-09-2002 19:32									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak The french title is "L'Homme Révolté", the revolted man. Its in this book that there is this famous proverb : "I revolt, therefore we are".

That's the book, alright. A fine, fine piece of work. If I wanted to translate that, I'd probably go with "Man in Revolt", which still sounds pretty French. I'm not sure who chose to call the English version "The Rebel", but that does have the chunky sound that is likely to go over well with anglophones. I could picture " L' " making an editor assume he should use "the".

The party seal looks great. What is written on the scroll wrapping the wheat?

Was the comment "transcendence is gay" posted over at OT, made in person or was it about some form of non-AC transcendence? It does sound like the kind of comment it would take a real goon to make.

The flag design you posted on the flag thread is fantastic.

	10-09-2002 21:28									#204
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quote: Originally posted by lucky22 That's the book, alright. A fine, fine piece of work. If I wanted to translate that, I'd probably go with "Man in Revolt", which still sounds pretty French. I'm not sure who chose to call the English version "The Rebel", but that does have the chunky sound that is likely to go over well with anglophones. I could picture " L' " making an editor assume he should use "the".

The english title : "The Revolt", is I think the best translation.

quote: The party seal looks great. What is written on the scroll wrapping the wheat?

Nothing, catually, its just yello lines.

quote: Was the comment "transcendence is gay" posted over at OT, made in person or was it about some form of non-AC transcendence? It does sound like the kind of comment it would take a real goon to make.

I dont really remember... IIRC, I meant people who speak about anarchism as a mess would say that on AC.

quote: The flag design you posted on the flag thread is fantastic.

Thanx

	11-09-2002 16:16									#205
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Nice Logo
The Yellow Lines mean : Power to the ppl, at least thats what the Voices are saying.

	12-09-2002 01:33									#206
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Since we got no choice this IS our logo !


edit : Yeah it looks real good

	13-09-2002 03:02									#207
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oh yeah just because a member posts something the forums doesnt want to hear doesnt mean you should ban me.but fine, do what you want.i guess the P4 is better because they are actually loyal to theyre members.

	13-09-2002 03:41									#208
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quote: Originally posted by themagicbanana oh yeah just because a member posts something the forums doesnt want to hear doesnt mean you should ban me.but fine, do what you want.i guess the P4 is better because they are actually loyal to theyre members.

Lost Comrade Banana!! I have missed you!! Are you home to stay or are you following up on that P4 quip and going to bed with Archaic?

	13-09-2002 05:11									#210
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quote: Originally posted by themagicbanana oh yeah just because a member posts something the forums doesnt want to hear doesnt mean you should ban me.but fine, do what you want.i guess the P4 is better because they are actually loyal to theyre members.

Your conduct in the forums proves that you are DEFINATELY not someone the CCCP and (I would assume) the P4 wish to have in their parties.