07-08-2002 23:40									#1
	Extra Pack: Barbarian Tribes Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I hope this will get a good discussion. Remeber that the total number of tribes has to remain at 76.

Here's my list of barbarian tribes:


Toltec
Chibcha
Cherokee
Anasazi
Mixtec
Olmec
Zapotec
Arawac
Sioux
Apache
Mapuche
Inuit
Navaho
Carib
Saxon
Vandal
Goth
Angle
Magyar
Avar
Serb
Bulgar
Lithuanian
Burgundian
Gepid
Hun
Basque
Marcomanni
Seljuk
Hycsos
Etruscan
Illuryian
Thracian
Phrygian
Croat
Minoan
Mycenian
Cimmerian
Ligurian
Numidian
Hittite
Lydian
Hausa
Armenian
Sumerian
Urartean
Ashanti
Harappan
Mauryan
Parthian
Harappan
Nubian
Aramean
Bactrian
Chaldean
Cuman
Libyan
Kassite
Bantu
Tangut
Wu-Sun
Khazak
Sien-Pi
Thai
Ainu
Polynesian
Aryan
Uygur
Choresmian
Tibetan
Kushan
Yue-Chi
Tocharian
Uzbek
Tartar
Barbarian

Last edited by Wernazuma III on 08-08-2002 at 21:14

	08-08-2002 00:10									#2
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Judging from your list, you seem to use civs that do not make the grade for inclusion in the game - minor civs playing the role of barbarians.

One problem I see is that all of africa is lumped into Libyan and Bantu. The latter comprises hundreds of millions of people and numerous significant civs! Perhaps even a short list of actual african civs would be better, e.g.

Ashanti
Mali
Nubian
Meroe
Ethiopian
etc...

	08-08-2002 00:24									#3
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Hm, if you take a closer look, the Ashanti and Hausa are in. The Ethiopians are actually even one of the 15 additional civs.

	08-08-2002 00:30									#4
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Oh, and not to forget, you overlooked the Nubians, Numidians, Bantu...

	08-08-2002 01:12									#5
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Perhaps I was scrolling down too fast...

	08-08-2002 02:28									#6
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Anyway, I'm sure my list isn't perfect, so keep critique coming

	08-08-2002 04:54									#7
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Pict
Irish
Frysian
Helvetian
Maltese
Venetian
Berber
Taugari (pl. Tuareg)
Pigmee
Masai
Somalian
Ghanese
Druz
Kurd
Afghan
Tunguz
Viet
Tamil
Maori
Aboriginal
Seminole
Comanche
Hopi
Algonquin
Cheyenne
Cuban
Mexican
(NB Navajo should be Navaho)

	08-08-2002 21:39									#8
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I've changed the Navaho.

Some notes on the other suggestions. I really got to know, which you'd replace with which. As I've said, the total number got to be 76.
As much as I can see, the first 14 are assigned to the "American Culture Group", the next 14 to "European", the next to "Mediterranean". The rest is divided between Mid-East (including Africa) and East Asian, probably with the "Kassite" in my list being the last Mid-Eastern barbarian tribe.


Pict: Instead of Scot? Are they to be preferred?
Irish: Basically Celts
Frysian: Already so many Germanics
Helvetian: Celts
Maltese: Unimportant
Venetian: Maybe. Instead of Croats maybe?
Berber: Instead of Numidians - thinkable
Taugari (pl. Tuareg) - as above
Pigmee - nah
Masai - I've considered them; which should be replaced?
Somalian - nah
Ghanese - Included in Ashanti and Hausa
Druz - too unimportant IMHO
Kurd - maybe, replacing what?
Afghan - nah, not even a single people
Tunguz - really important?
Viet - I don't think they're important enough
Tamil - thought about them, but they again are of little importance, relatively
Maori - included in Polynesians
Aboriginal - nah
Seminole
Comanche
Hopi
Algonquin
Cheyenne - for all of these goes: replacing which other tribes. The odds ratio between North American and South American should not be changed too much
Cuban - nah
Mexican - even less; Aztecs, Mayas and Spanish are enough Mexicans

	09-08-2002 04:17									#9
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Since when are armenians barbarian?
-
Picts are a bit different from scots... They';re a lot alike, but the picts were the naked people wandering around the north.

Mexicans aren't barbarians, they're a minor tribe.

	09-08-2002 21:19									#10
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Well, actually I understand the "barbarian" list as "minor tribes". After all, the Incas and Mayas were in the original list. just like the Etruscans, Minoans, Phoenicians.

About the Picts: Yes, I know that they're different, but there can be only one minor tribe from Scotland, so I wondered which would be better: Scots or Picts?

	10-08-2002 01:52									#11
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Okay, I see.
I would say Picts... Mostly because I prefer them.
But if you want the more important one (at least from a bit before William Wallace, I'd pick the Scots... as the Picts didn't last long into the middle ages )

	10-08-2002 02:25									#12
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What am I thinking, the Scots are Celts, so they're already in the game! (kind of) Are PictsCelts? That would change the whole thing, then I'd prefer them 100 times.

	22-08-2002 11:08									#13
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Picts aren't Celts.
"Illuryian" should be "Illyrian".
"Khazak" should be "Kazakh".

For consistency's sake, all Chinese cities, tribe names, leader names etc should be in pinyin. Thus:
Yue-Chi > Yuezhi
Sien-Pi > Xianbei

Tocharian = Yuezhi (afaik). You can use "Khitan" instead, a major pain for China during the Northern Song Dynasty.

also, "Aryan" is a weird name for a barbarian tribe since they eventually ended up as the North Indians. You can substitute for the "Yi", a catch-all name for most of the tribes south of China.

	24-08-2002 01:59									#14
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ranskaldan: I've made some changes to the barbarian list, especially the typos and changing Sien-Pi and Yue-Chi to your spelling. Still thinking a bit about the others. Thanks anyway

	30-08-2002 17:44									#15
	bantu is a general classification not a specific people Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

there was never a tribe called the bantu.

Bantu isn't really a race at all but a classification of a group of african languages (including zulu).

Bantu just means "the people". So in south africa you have the languages English (language of settlers from the British Empire), Afrikaans (language of the Dutch settlers) and the bantu languages (languages of the people)

Definition of Bantu:
"group of African languages forming a subdivision of the Benue-Niger division of the Niger-Congo branch of the Niger-Kordofanian language family (see African languages). Bantu contains hundreds of languages that are spoken by 120 million Africans in the Congo Basin, Angola, the Republic of South Africa, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia, Malawi, Tanzania, and Kenya. The word Bantu means “the people” and is made up of the stem -ntu (“person”) and the plural prefix ba-. 1
The total number of Bantu languages is uncertain. The most important is Swahili (see Swahili language), spoken as a first language by more than 30 million people, chiefly in Kenya, Tanzania, Congo (Kinshasa), and Uganda. As the chief trade language of E Africa, it is understood by perhaps an additional 20 million. Other significant Bantu languages include Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho, and Setswana, which are spoken respectively by 9 million, 7 million, 5 million, and 4 million persons, all living in South Africa, Lesotho, and Botswana; Makua and Thonga, the languages respectively of 4 million and 3 million people, chiefly in Mozambique; Bemba, the language of over 3 million in Zambia and Congo (Kinshasa); Shona, with 8 million speakers in Zimbabwe and Mozambique; Kikuyu, native to 6 million in Kenya; Ganda, the language of 4 million in Uganda; Ruanda, spoken by 8 million in Rwanda, Uganda, and Congo (Kinshasa); Rundi, the language of 6 million in Burundi and Congo (Kinshasa); Mbundu, native to 6 million in Angola; Luba, with 7 million speakers in Congo (Kinshasa); Kongo, the language of 4 million in Congo (Brazzaville), Congo (Kinshasa), and Angola; and Lingala, spoken by 6 million in Congo (Kinshasa). "

	30-08-2002 22:57									#16
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TG: What African tribe would YOU place instead of Bantu?

	01-09-2002 01:23									#17
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Wernazuma: Good work on this project , man , my hat is off to you.

I know this is a bit Off-Topic : my question is , could you have barbarian UU ? an 2/2/1 Infantry of sorts , and a 3/2/2 horseman of sorts ? So that in the beginning , The barbarians would be rather tough , and still would pose some challenge in the beginning of the middle ages? Just a thought.....

	01-09-2002 06:39									#18
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Just consider the Bantu like the Iroquois League
-
Azazel- or they could be like in Civ II where the Barbarians evolved with the years

	01-09-2002 12:41									#19
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I think, era-specific barbarian units are impossible to be made. I'll think about a barbarian UU though, good idea.

	01-09-2002 15:53									#20
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I know that era-specific Barb units are impossible. This lack of flexibility kills me , and makes me remember the CtP series with a certain nostalgia. but If I may suggest, The barb unit , if you wanna have only one of them , is to be the infantry unit, because the horseman is rather good as a barbarian , and also has that feel throughout the ages. In the games I play , I've made a little change so in my games, The infantry unit of the barbs is a swordsman, and the cavalry unit is the chinese rider. maybe something to be considered, I don't know.

oh, and these are "minor civs", not barbarians. REALLY.

	17-09-2002 07:29									#21
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2 W3

quote: Some notes on the other suggestions. I really got to know, which you'd replace with which. As I've said, the total number got to be 76. As much as I can see, the first 14 are assigned to the "American Culture Group", the next 14 to "European", the next to "Mediterranean". The rest is divided between Mid-East (including Africa) and East Asian, probably with the "Kassite" in my list being the last Mid-Eastern barbarian tribe

Barbarians should be divided by 15 tribes per 5 cultural groups + 1 generic 'Barbarian' tribe or something. Totally -76.
BTW 'Khazak' shouldn't 'Kazakh' -modern nation from late Medieval but should 'Khazar' - early-mid Medieval Empire on Northern Caspian steppes, rival against Bizantine and Khalifat with iudaism as state religio. Arabs call Caspian Sea as Bahr-al-Khazar.

	17-09-2002 21:13									#22
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I believe barbarian tribes should use the same units they use now, but I would add a UU in the modern times, and surely that would be some kind of Partizan or "Guerillero", maybe substitute of Infantry.
Hugs
Yellfromhell

	01-10-2002 04:18									#23
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Wernazuma, you had Navajo right the first time. it's pronouced Navaho, but the Spanish 'j' sounds like the English 'h'. see: http://www.navajo.org/

	01-10-2002 13:49									#24
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In the English version of Civ3 it should be Navaho.

	01-10-2002 21:42									#25
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Ya sé como se pronuncia la "jota".

Anyway, the Navaho/Navajo themselves didn't write in latin alphabet anyway, so I guess it's matter of taste whether Navajo or Navaho is more correct and Navaho is probably the more widely used version...

	01-10-2002 23:26									#26
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My list:

Barb 1
Barb 2
Barb 3
A lotta of Barbs
.
.
.

	02-10-2002 09:23									#27
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i say, 'cause my opinion is so damn important to this glorious world that bowes to me, that if the Navajo Nation spells their name in English with a 'j' than we should spell their name in English with a 'j'. who are we to say how they should spell their name?

besides, they're just a 'barbarians' anyways

	02-10-2002 15:38									#28
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Who says they spell it in English?

Actually they call themselves the Diné.

The linguistic roots of "Navaho" are the Tewa words "nava" for cultivated field and "hu" for the mouths of canyons.

Beware of the dangerous barbarian farmers!

	02-10-2002 21:14									#29
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Well, I'll change it to Diné then, why didn't you tell me earlier?

	03-10-2002 02:35									#30
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Well the term Navajo is more common than Dine, in English they're called Navajo. You wouldn't called the Germans the Deutsch just because they call themselves that.
I have a feeling the people who spell Navajo with an "h" are the same ones who spell Marijuana with an "h." Since the Navajo were "discovered" by the Spanish, that name stuck with them, the only people who would spell it "Navaho" would be the one's who couldn't make the connect between the letter "j" and an "h" noise.