13-08-2002 01:27									#1
	Evil Indian Capitalist Polluters Kill Millions Tired of ads?

The US is not alone in killing millions through pollution. The Indians join the club. Check out this story on CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiap...haze/index.html

	13-08-2002 01:38									#2
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Oh please! The US is not killing millions with pollution. The US has better technology industries than India... which emit less pollution and are more advanced now and the US can put laws against heavy polluting. (Not the illogical Kyoto protocol that is retroactive but real, business and environment friendly laws)

India thinks it can do the same thing Europe and the US did and that is go through heavy pollutive industrialization.

There is one sensible solution: They should receive help to bypass heavy industrialization and go straight to high tech (and lesser polluting) industrialization.

	13-08-2002 01:41									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Oh please! The US is not killing millions with pollution. The US has better technology industries than India... which emit less pollution and are more advanced now and the US can put laws against heavy polluting. (Not the illogical Kyoto protocol that is retroactive but real, business and environment friendly laws)

Like SUVs?

	13-08-2002 01:43									#4
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Fez good SUV's bad

	13-08-2002 01:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Like SUVs?

That is one exception.

It is not like Europe is doing a better job. Even my own country, Spain, has issues with pollution.

	13-08-2002 01:57									#6
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I thought Ned was a conservative.

	13-08-2002 01:57									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Fez That is one exception. It is not like Europe is doing a better job. Even my own country, Spain, has issues with pollution.

From what I saw, around half the cars over there are SUVs. One exception? Try a few millions.

And I thought Europe was reducing levels of pollution

	13-08-2002 01:58									#8
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Che, I really could never figure out where he was on the political scale...

	13-08-2002 02:00									#9
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon From what I saw, around half the cars over there are SUVs. One exception? Try a few millions.

I have to disagree.

quote: And I thought Europe was reducing levels of pollution

Yeah right.

	13-08-2002 02:12									#10
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I thought Ned was a conservative.

Che, Yes, I am. This is just a bit of sarcasim.

I'm just sick and tired of world, especially the third world's, focus on the US as the source of all pollution, when apparently it is our technology that has reduced pollution enormously. The absent of modern technology, coupled with large populations, seems to lead to worse pollution. Thus this story.

This is a obvious problem with no obvious solution.

	13-08-2002 02:15									#11
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Ned, you are right on the spot. But if the US did the same thing to get where it is today (with an advanced economy) then why shouldn't India? The industrialization occured somewhere around the mid 1800s, and led to bad pollution problems until technology got better in the 20th century.

But I have a solution that might be workable, why not help India and China bypass heavy industrialization and go right to more modern industralization?

	13-08-2002 02:19									#12
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quote: business and environment friendly laws

Haha... And in one sentence

And about India, Ned is right, how dares an ordinary third world country try to reach our level of consumption without the money to spend on Fez' high tech! Why don't all them underdeveloped peoples stay in their gutter?

I wonder why sometimes the Kommie sympathies of my youth come up in my head every now and then?

	13-08-2002 02:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Ned, you are right on the spot. But if the US did the same thing to get where it is today (with an advanced economy) then why shouldn't India? The industrialization occured somewhere around the mid 1800s, and led to bad pollution problems until technology got better in the 20th century.

So there are no bad pollution problems today? With your head stuck in the sand like that you'll drown come global warming.

quote: But I have a solution that might be workable, why not help India and China bypass heavy industrialization and go right to more modern industralization?

Because that would create competitors and less sweatshop workers.

	13-08-2002 02:48									#14
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Notice key differences in the way CNN and the BBC report the causes of this awfulness.

CNN report:

quote: "Biomass burning" from forest fires, vegetation clearing and fossil fuel was just as much to blame for the shrouding haze as dirty industries from Asia's great cities, the study found.

BBC report:

quote: He said: "The haze is the result of forest fires, the burning of agricultural wastes, dramatic increases in the burning of fossil fuels in vehicles, industries and power stations, and emissions from millions of inefficient cookers burning wood, cow dung and other 'bio-fuels'."

The CNN report neglects to mention vehicles and power stations. What a surprise.

	13-08-2002 02:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon So there are no bad pollution problems today? With your head stuck in the sand like that you'll drown come global warming.

Yes there are bad pollution problems and I never denied that. But the US has gotten better and as technology improves these bad pollution problems will dimish.

quote: Because that would create competitors and less sweatshop workers.

What are you talking about? It won't. It will just create a more adequate industry for India.

quote: Why don't all them underdeveloped peoples stay in their gutter? I wonder why sometimes the Kommie sympathies of my youth come up in my head every now and then?

Why shouldn't a country like India pursuit development? Why shouldn't they have their chance at developed status? The answer is this: They most definitely deserve that chance. Retroactive treaties like Kyoto will do nothing but stall economic progress for the entire world but that is not the issue... they deserve the right to reach economic modernization. But is there a way to do it faster and so it pollutes less? Damn well there is. That is what the beauty of capitalism is... it produces advancements and good solid economic growth.

	13-08-2002 02:51									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The US is not alone in killing millions through pollution. The Indians join the club. Check out this story on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiap...haze/index.html

Indians? Try all of Asia. The article never singles out India.

	13-08-2002 02:53									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Why shouldn't a country like India pursuit development? Why shouldn't they have their chance at developed status? The answer is this: They most definitely deserve that chance. Retroactive treaties like Kyoto will do nothing but stall economic progress for the entire world but that is not the issue... they deserve the right to reach economic modernization. But is there a way to do it faster and so it pollutes less? Damn well there is. That is what the beauty of capitalism is... it produces advancements and good solid economic growth.

So that in 100 years they'll have the economy to compete with us so that we won't own all the radioactive dirt that'll make up the planet, and will be the only thing left to buy?

	13-08-2002 02:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous So that in 100 years they'll have the economy to compete with us so that we won't own all the radioactive dirt that'll make up the planet, and will be the only thing left to buy?

You messed up what I was saying. I said there should be a faster way to reach modern industrialization rather going through the old industrialization process. (How many damn times do I have to say that?) Just because I am capitalist does not mean I hate the environment. That is something the communists, socialists and tree huggers seem not to understand... they present retroactive and illogical proposals, while I suggest one that has the economy in mind.

	13-08-2002 03:09									#19
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quote: Why shouldn't they have their chance at developed status?

You'd better ask this to the IMF, Western companies, Western governments, Western middle class people like you and me and what have you...

My guess is that we benefit too much from the status quo...

	13-08-2002 03:15									#20
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quote: But I have a solution that might be workable, why not help India and China bypass heavy industrialization and go right to more modern industralization?

Problems with your proposal:
*The demand for cleaner fuels such as oil and gas would skyrocket.

*Who's going to foot the bill to replace all those ovens?

*Modern industrialisation still pollutes.

*The world economy will go belly-up without a supply of cheap exploitable labour. Part of the reason they're cheap is that they use cheap fuels like coal and wood.

	13-08-2002 03:16									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij My guess is that we benefit too much from the status quo...

Do we really?

With a country like Japan which rose from being a military state (which frankly did not have a productive economy) to having a high tech one? Which did we really benefit from?

I have to disagree with your line of thinking here entirely.

	13-08-2002 03:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Do we really? With a country like Japan which rose from being a military state (which frankly did not have a productive economy) to having a high tech one? Which did we really benefit from? I have to disagree with your line of thinking here entirely.

A - Corporations and Globalisation most cetainly were not really issues in the first half of the 20th Century.

B - We were at war with Japan and had little business in the area, leaving the allies free to flatten it.

C - Japan's population is not even half that of India.

	13-08-2002 03:19									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Problems with your proposal: *The demand for cleaner fuels such as oil and gas would skyrocket.

Oil and Gas are cleaner?

I was thinking along the lines of (improved) nuclear power...

quote: *Who's going to foot the bill to replace all those ovens?

quote: *Modern industrialisation still pollutes.

But much lesser so that is actually a pro. Don't distort my views please.

quote: *The world economy will go belly-up without a supply of cheap exploitable labour. Part of the reason they're cheap is that they use cheap fuels like coal and wood.

Really? I have to disagree with that.... I think once these developing countries reach modern status... better ways of manufacturing will be invented (that require lesser amounts of humans to work).

Quite frankly, my proposal's potentials outweigh the negatives.

	13-08-2002 03:20									#24
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I suggest you do some reading up on Thirld World Economy before agreeing or disagreeing on anything...

	13-08-2002 03:21									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Really? I have to disagree with that.... I think once these developing countries reach modern status... better ways of manufacturing will be invented (that require lesser amounts of humans to work). Quite frankly, my proposal's potentials outweigh the negatives.

Which is cheaper? Spending thousands of dollars on robotics or paying an Indonesian kid three cents an hour?

	13-08-2002 03:23									#26
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon A - Corporations and Globalisation most cetainly were not really issues in the first half of the 20th Century.

Did I say or even infer they were? And corporations are issues? Shows you political beliefs.

quote: B - We were at war with Japan and had little business in the area, leaving the allies free to flatten it.

Uh huh, your point being?

quote: C - Japan's population is not even half that of India.

And?

Hueij:

quote: I suggest you do some reading up on Thirld World Economy before agreeing or disagreeing on anything...

I suggest you start respecting other beliefs around here because with this pitiful attitude you will accomplish nothing. You will not suggest anything to me because I am already informed on the economies of developing countries. Third world is not the proper term to use anymore by the way... I am trying to teach myself that so you should too.

	13-08-2002 03:24									#27
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Which is cheaper? Spending thousands of dollars on robotics or paying an Indonesian kid three cents an hour?

I suspect you would come up with a better comeback than that.

	13-08-2002 03:28									#28
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Gian - yes, even those on the hard-right should be able to admit that there are issues with corporate power. And India has 900 million people, Japan has FAR less than that. Hence, India has many cheap, exploitable labourers which wouldn't be cheap and exploitable if they had large houses and TV sets. So the status quo of them being poor is beneficial to western business.

	13-08-2002 03:29									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I suspect you would come up with a better comeback than that.

And yet you cannot challenge it.

	13-08-2002 03:31									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Yes there are bad pollution problems and I never denied that. But the US has gotten better and as technology improves these bad pollution problems will dimish.

But it never would have gotten better if you conservatives had your way. It's us ecologists who kept pushing you and kept pushing you. And we have a cleaner environment thanks to our nagging.