14-08-2002 01:46									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin If Sweden had openly sided with Nato there was a great risk of destabilising northern Europe.

I see we've done our Social Democratic homework, Krop. Soon you'll be telling us we don't appreciate a bunch of crap piles as a fitting memorial to Raoul Wallenberg because we're petty burgeoise...

	14-08-2002 01:46									#32
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What makes the Sweden's situation so different than that of West Germany or Italy, two strong members of NATO?

Edit: moomin, that's gratuitous.

	14-08-2002 02:14									#33
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Well one could argue that in case of overt NATO membership, the Social Democratic Conspiracy might have been driven to acts of desperation, launching MIRVs filled with crapola art.

	14-08-2002 02:19									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Jaakko the Social Democratic Conspiracy might have been driven to acts of desperation, launching MIRVs filled with crapola art.

Isn't that banned by the Geneva Convention?

	14-08-2002 02:23									#35
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I believe there is a loophole in there somewhere, allowing anti-materiel use.

	14-08-2002 02:34									#36
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but the statue is, well, a piece of ****. .

	14-08-2002 02:40									#37
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quote: I believe there is a loophole in there somewhere, allowing anti-materiel use.

Especially in case of crap art.

It's called the Poophole Loophole.

	14-08-2002 02:42									#38
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Well, Germany and Italy was part of the war and was thus also part of the restructuring of Europe after the war. There was not however the case that everything that happend there wasn't potentianlly 'destabilising', just look at Berlin.

Sweden was neutral during the war and have a long tradition of non-alignment. At the same time many argued that due to Finlands situation sweden should keep a neutral line. As probably most finns here can tell us better than I Finland had quite a unpleasant security situation after the war. The reasons for the Swedish unaligment was more or less offically that if Sweden joined nato it might mean that the russian bear would feel the need to take some steps to 'protect' Finland.

This is the 'official' version. One could argue that a) the scenario wouldn't happen or b) this wasn't the real reason. Whatever, from the perspective of the swedish goverment it would seem reasonable to keep a straight line and not join either side.

What moomin likes to do is to turn history, that's something complex and gray and turn it around to fit his political views of the world of black and white. I argue that joining nato would be a risk and at the same side quite pointless. Joining a military alliance is and should be the best choice from a regional security perspective not because out of a desire to start a crusade to free the world from communism.

	14-08-2002 02:43									#39
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... and btw moomin, I've already stated my view of the twelve pieces of sh!t.

	14-08-2002 02:54									#40
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Wow, that´s a crappy ( ) tribute to Raoul Wallenberg...

But I also refuse to believe that this is part of the SAP world conspiracy that exists in your head moomin

	14-08-2002 03:06									#41
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Moomin's a hater.

	14-08-2002 03:08									#42
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Tell me about it...

	14-08-2002 04:04									#43
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SAP?

	14-08-2002 04:08									#44
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Socialdemocratic Workers Party (Socialdemokratiska Arbetar Partiet)

	14-08-2002 04:23									#45
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I've got to say, 'Poly has seen awfully many kooky threads lately.
I think we need an MBT thread to balance it all out.

	14-08-2002 04:29									#46
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Jaakko, I think it's all that steam that's not channelled properly , to a nice ME thread.

an MBT can't get really violent, and that's what we need now.

	14-08-2002 04:49									#47
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MBT?

	14-08-2002 04:52									#48
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NOOOOO!!!! Not an MBT. Anything but that. The arcana of bore sizes versus mobility will be the death of us!




Because we know it is all about mobility. You see, that is why your Abrams ...

	14-08-2002 05:29									#49
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Actually, it's the trinity of Firepower, Armour and Mobility. A fascinating example was the Leopard 1 series. It was built in an era where HEAT ammunition was king, as it could penetrate ridiculous amounts of armour steel, but exotic armour wasn't developed yet.

That means they had a situation where firepower could lopsidedly defeat armour, and so the result was a tank with the ubiquitous 105mm rifled gun, little armour, but a lot of mobility. After all, on a battlefield where a hit always killed, speed would be the only cure.

Edit: Dammit Dal, I don't even recognise you anymore. Your name sounds like a cheesy sci-fi novel!

	14-08-2002 13:41									#50
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This is an insanely hilarious thread. Unfortunately there really is nothing to add.

So, what about the Leo II ?

	14-08-2002 14:07									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Roland This is an insanely hilarious thread. Unfortunately there really is nothing to add.

An Austrian, finding a thread about how socialists allow their envy and malevolence to turn a monument of a man who actually tried to undo some of the horrors of the holocaust into a dung pile insanely hilarious?

I guess we shouldn't be surprised. It's not like Austria ever went through the German nazi purges, is it?

	14-08-2002 14:20									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Moomin's a hater.

Well, if I am, at least I'm not the particularly despicable kind of maggot who tries to do away with the memory of the mountain of corpses his pet ideology racked up, in order for it too look better in the eyes of those who haven't yet understood the harsh necessities that dialectic materialism forces upon the progressive elements of the dictature of the proletariat.

Edit: deleted as per moderator request.

	14-08-2002 14:23									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin What moomin likes to do is to turn history, that's something complex and gray and turn it around to fit his political views of the world of black and white. I argue that joining nato would be a risk and at the same side quite pointless. Joining a military alliance is and should be the best choice from a regional security perspective not because out of a desire to start a crusade to free the world from communism.

This is hogwash whoever thought it, and the proof is not the outcome of the Cold War but WWII itself. Almost every neutral country lined up between large enemies got overrun, and in the East this meant either a Nazi government followed by a Stalinist government unless you were unlucky enough to come under Soviet control twice. Neutral border states suffered horribly. It should have been crystal clear that neither NATO or the Soviets were going to launch a war over Sweden or Yugoslavia's international policy if it meant a war with the other bloc. The danger was minimal at worst.

As for the crusade to free the world of communism, remind me please how many NATO troops were used to fight communism around the globe?

	14-08-2002 14:42									#54
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quote: Originally posted by moomin Well, if I am, at least I'm not the particularly despicable kind of maggot who tries to do away with the memory of the mountain of corpses his pet ideology racked up, in order for it too look better in the eyes of those who haven't yet understood the harsh necessities that dialectic materialism forces upon the progressive elements of the dictature of the proletariat. And I don't really need hate. I'd settle for justice. Nothing would please me better than to hear that you, personally, got the join the ranks of those murdered by your favourite ideologly. It would add icing to the cake if some other commie was then to deny you ever existed. Would I do it myself? Hell, no, I'm no commie. But I would love it if the joys of the your pet ideology were visited upon you. Let the punishment fit the crime.

moomin, please. You´re making enough of an ass of yourself as it is... Noone here is seriously defending Stalin and his followers genocide.

	14-08-2002 14:53									#55
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Moomin you're just an idiot. A pompous idiot, but an idiot nonetheless. And I'm not laughing about Wallenberg, I'm laughing about you and the outpourings of your someone-crapped-in-and forgot-to-flush-brain.

"It's not like Austria ever went through the German nazi purges, is it?"

You show again that you know abso****inlutely nothing but some lines you've snapped up somewhere.

	14-08-2002 15:15									#56
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Looks like Eurowiggy was an accurate characterisation on my part.

And the Leo 2, it's simply another one of the newer NATO standard tanks. With laminate or composite armour it is well protected even against modern rounds, while still retaining good mobility. The main gun is again the present standard, a 120mm smoothbore. Incidentally, the advantages present in this kind of tank have driven the development of so called top-attack anti tank missiles, in order to preserve their effectiveness against vehicles that routinely defeat any HEAT round hitting the front armour.

	14-08-2002 15:17									#57
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A5 or A6 ?

	14-08-2002 15:31									#58
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I think all the big changes came in A5.
And I should have mentioned the extensive computerisation of fire control systems, allowing for a much higher PK per shot compared to tanks of previous generations. It also dramatically increases mobility, because the tank doesn't have to stop to fire the main gun.

	14-08-2002 16:43									#59
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Sikander: Like the world hogwash do we?

About the "crusade" et al., it's clear that there's no room for some simple retorics and overstatements. In diplomacy choosing sides and join a military alliance is a pretty outspoken message to the rest of the world imho.

If neither side would start a war about Sweden, Yugoslavia or any other minor country (a point of view easy to have today but even Cuba is a minor country) a membership in nato is pointless. If it would start a war it would be stupid.

	14-08-2002 16:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Sikander: Like the world hogwash do we? About the "crusade" et al., it's clear that there's no room for some simple retorics and overstatements. In diplomacy choosing sides and join a military alliance is a pretty outspoken message to the rest of the world imho. If neither side would start a war about Sweden, Yugoslavia or any other minor country (a point of view easy to have today but even Cuba is a minor country) a membership in nato is pointless. If it would start a war it would be stupid.

No one was going to start a war because someone joined the other side. It was defending the bloc that was important. If for some reason the Soviets decided to take Sweden, I doubt that NATO would have done anything about it. The stakes were too high. Thus by remaining neutral you remained at risk, as there was no MAD calculus working in your favor. Obviously in the event there was no war for you, but the smarter bet (say playing the same situation out 100 times) was to pick a side, preferably the one that states joined voluntarily.

The Cuban Missle Crisis IMO was the low point of U.S. foreign policy during the Cold War. It was not the lowest ebb of U.S. fortunes mind you, but the most reckless action taken by that maniac Kennedy. He made every other U.S. president of the era look like a model of restraint. Thank god someone shot him in the head, probably someone who knew what was going on.