14-08-2002 17:04									#61
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"If for some reason the Soviets decided to take Sweden, I doubt that NATO would have done anything about it."

That would have created a very difficult strategic situation for NATO, with Norway extremely vulnerable, the soviets in control of the baltic sea and not much stopping them from easy access to the north atlantic. I'm pretty sure NATO would have seen this as a casus belli. (Just as it was a tacit understanding that should the Soviets invade Austria, NATO would seek a close down somewhere in the alps).

"Thank god someone shot him in the head, probably someone who knew what was going on."

Nice to see someone with a realistic assessment of JFK.

	14-08-2002 17:49									#62
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What people fail to recognize about the Cuban Missile Crisis is that it was solved not by Kennedy's balls, but by an agreement in which the US removed Jupiter missiles from Turkey and the Soviets removed their missiles from Cuba. Nobody actually backed down.

	14-08-2002 17:53									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Roland "If for some reason the Soviets decided to take Sweden, I doubt that NATO would have done anything about it." That would have created a very difficult strategic situation for NATO, with Norway extremely vulnerable, the soviets in control of the baltic sea and not much stopping them from easy access to the north atlantic. I'm pretty sure NATO would have seen this as a casus belli. (Just as it was a tacit understanding that should the Soviets invade Austria, NATO would seek a close down somewhere in the alps).

Denmark and Norway are the keys to the Baltic. Strategically the threat was not who could use the Baltic as an avenue of attack, but whether the Soviets could get their subs out of the Baltic and into the North Sea. Norway would have been ready to fall like a ripe fruit to be sure, but I wonder how easily NATO states like France and Greece could have been brought along into Armageddon for the sake of a non-Nato state. As for Austria, there were agreements in place regarding her from the end of WWII which would have given most of NATO a caussus belli. I think the odds were pretty good that we would have intervened there as you say, but the legal circumstances were different, and the states directly threatened much more populous and powerful than Norway.

	14-08-2002 20:08									#64
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"No one was going to start a war because someone joined the other side. It was defending the bloc that was important. If for some reason the Soviets decided to take Sweden, I doubt that NATO would have done anything about it. The stakes were too high. Thus by remaining neutral you remained at risk, as there was no MAD calculus working in your favor. Obviously in the event there was no war for you, but the smarter bet (say playing the same situation out 100 times) was to pick a side, preferably the one that states joined voluntarily."

Indeed. As did Norway (before MAD).

Norway didn't have any problem with playing it low key, while being an original member of NATO and having a border with the Soviet Union. You don't have to say "fvck off" outright for the Soviets to get the message.

	14-08-2002 21:28									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Thus by remaining neutral you remained at risk, as there was no MAD calculus working in your favor. Obviously in the event there was no war for you, but the smarter bet (say playing the same situation out 100 times) was to pick a side, preferably the one that states joined voluntarily.

I can agree that joining a side in the first years after the war might have worked. However I was refering to the post war era in general and once the soviets got the bomb it would be a risk. But at the beginning of the post war era the situation between Finland and the Soviet union wasn't exacly stable.

The swedish goverment keept the traditional non-alignment (notice the difference between non-alignment in peace for neutrality in war.) that had worked before. I think it's fully understandable even if one can never be sure what the best option is. That Norway joined Nato was as understandable from their position.

	14-08-2002 21:35									#66
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This, of course, skips around the point that a lot of people in the other thread liked the sculpture. I was one of them. It was forbidding, but very interesting.

You're dealing with a very grim chapter in human history. I think that a picture of a fluffy little bunny rabbit, or a nice vase of dahlias, would fail to do the subject justice somehow.

In fact, I can't see anything disrespectful in the sculpture at all. Certainly nothing excremental sprung to mind when I saw it.

How long have you had this anal fixation, moomin?

	14-08-2002 21:38									#67
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"That Norway joined Nato was as understandable from their position"

You still haven't explained how Sweden's situation was any different than Norway's, Germany's, Italy's, etc.

	14-08-2002 21:42									#68
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quote: Originally posted by moomin Well, if I am, at least I'm not the particularly despicable kind of maggot who tries to do away with the memory of the mountain of corpses his pet ideology racked up, in order for it too look better in the eyes of those who haven't yet understood the harsh necessities that dialectic materialism forces upon the progressive elements of the dictature of the proletariat.

When have I ever done that? I deny the lies that Nazis like you would perpetrate, but I acknowledge full well what the Soviets did. The fact that your lies are unsustainable in the face of common sense (Yeah, right, the USSR killed 1/3rd of it's population )

You take one sentence I wrote out of context and use it to claim I'm the equivalent of a holocaust denier? You twist the truth. You grasp onto anything that you think will make your target of hatred look worse. If someone said Stalin ate kittens, you'd believe it. You are completely irrational and without a clue.

	14-08-2002 21:43									#69
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Hey, I'm not in moomin's political camp but I have to agree that the sculpture literally looks like excrement. Or slugs. Nothing uplifting. Nothing that could be considered representative of a tribute to Wallenberg. I'm not disputing that is art, but it certainly isn't a tribute.

	14-08-2002 21:43									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "That Norway joined Nato was as understandable from their position" You still haven't explained how Sweden's situation was any different than Norway's, Germany's, Italy's, etc.

Sweden wasn't a puppet of the US?

	14-08-2002 22:45									#71
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Hey moomin. I just read in this new book that Stalin ate kittens not just for breakfast, but for midnight snacks too. Interesting stuff, no? He probably picked up his habits from those (closet) Swedish Social Democrats in his cabinet.

	14-08-2002 23:05									#72
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Maybe Moomin only wants art that is approved by some governmental bureau of artistic rectitude (naturally formed after a coup deposing the Evil Social Democrats).

	14-08-2002 23:07									#73
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Insult gone.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 14-08-2002 at 23:17

	14-08-2002 23:10									#74
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara moomin has a condition caused by his ass being so tight that his **** comes out his fingertips.

Keep it up... and you will earn the same "vacation" that he got. One more personal insult out of you, and YOU WILL JOIN HIM!

	14-08-2002 23:17									#75
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I don't suppose you could strongly urge that he change his sig so that he no longer libels me by associating me with a holocaust denier?

	14-08-2002 23:23									#76
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't suppose you could strongly urge that he change his sig so that he no longer libels me by associating me with a holocaust denier?

No... not even as a polite suggestion...
There is no libel in his signature. If you see a connection between two "VALID" quotes... that's your problem...

So stop your whining... because one more insult or non on topic post, and you will be toast.

It's THAT SIMPLE!

	15-08-2002 00:07									#77
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You still haven't explained how Sweden's situation was any different than Norway's, Germany's, Italy's, etc.

I have never said that it was different per se, that's your interpetation of my post. Swedens (lack of) experience from the war, a long tradition of non-alignment and also the geopolitical situation meant they didn't join Nato from the beginning and after that it was no really good reason to do so imho. Is that 'different' enough for you?

	15-08-2002 00:16									#78
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OK, so you're dropping your destablization claim?

	15-08-2002 00:18									#79
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-->geopolitical situation

	15-08-2002 00:26									#80
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Describe how your geopolitical situation differed from the countries mentioned above as it relates to NATO.

Sounds awful vague to me.

	15-08-2002 00:31									#81
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If Che's concerned about Moomin's signature, just balance it out by pointing out that he accuses people of being Christian fundamentalists if they use the word "triumvirate".

	15-08-2002 00:38									#82
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Isn't it curious that right after Moomin's vacation, Wiggy shows up in a thread?

	15-08-2002 00:41									#83
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Wiggy makes less sense than moomin.

	15-08-2002 00:43									#84
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Wiggy can't put two clauses together that make sense.

	15-08-2002 00:46									#85
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A true troll can appear as stupid as he wishes.

	15-08-2002 00:54									#86
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I've already explained the swedish geopolitical situation. What countries did you mention? BRD, Italy? Well, really Italy is a no brainer. Italy is quite far away from a potentional war-front. There was hardly any risk for Italy to join Nato was there? As for BRD it was ocupied as you might have quessed and the front was already set. It was hardly a good idea not to join. If BRD was neutral ground it would be a serious disadvantage for both BRD and Nato. Sweden wasn't in such a situation and from that perspective a non-alignment policy was much more reasonable. After the tables was set there was no reason to rock the boat.

	15-08-2002 01:52									#87
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Norway?

	16-08-2002 01:25									#88
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't suppose you could strongly urge that he change his sig so that he no longer libels me by associating me with a holocaust denier?

Based on your posts about soviet union, I think you are dangerously close to being one. Serious.

	16-08-2002 01:37									#89
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Norway?

The soviet union had no real strategic interest in Sweden (except to reach Norway...), whereas Norway is the key to the Atlantic. There's no way in hell Norway would have escaped in case of a Soviet attack on Western Europe.

Same reason Hitler was appeasable from the Swedish side but practically had to take Norway.

	16-08-2002 01:40									#90
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Anyway, it's irrelevant since Sweden was in close secret military co-operation with NATO during the entire Cold War. If Sweden was attacked it would have been the practical equivalent of an attack on a NATO country in terms of effects on world peace.