19-08-2002 01:54									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse We might need to sell some techs. You see, with putting resources toward science we won't have as much money. We may not be able to buy all the techs we want without selling the techs we research ourselves.

Yes, of course -- sorry for not being clear. Just wanted to keep the idea of not selling everything in mind. We should still sell most things -- just not the stuff that gwe've got a reason to keep (Mil. Tradition for Calv., Invention for Leo's Workshop, etc). Basically we should keep the stuff that lets us build a wonder or a really advanced unit -- everything else should be sold. (Also, when the first AI gets something that we were holding back for a wonder, we might trade it away then depending on which AI discovers the tech, since the advantage might be over).

-- adaMada

	19-08-2002 02:00									#32
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I'm not the only one with power in tech trades though. My main job is just coming up with a plan.

Coming up with the next course of action might be pretty hard this time. The ministers don't seem to be in agreement.

	19-08-2002 02:21									#33
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I think the dem rush would be more useful than any rush to gunpowder. First, once we get pikemen, our defenses will not be very weak, plus, I think it is better to try to beat the enemy armies on the field and not wait until they are next to cities- and thankfully, the A.I. is not yet a skilled tactician when it comes to pitched battles.

Our swordmen will be enough to secure most of the Grand Basin, and to take most of Germany- once such lands are secure, an extensive period of internal development will be key- our empire will be the largest of all, and we will need the time to also make it the strongest.

Anyhow, I don't view tech-rushing as viable with out despotic government. We are relegious, so we can change govs. to our heartys desire. I say we buy the Republic from the Germans, or take it in war, and switch immidiately, as long as we are not at war.

	19-08-2002 02:29									#34
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I'm afraid the Germans won't sell it to us. Not for a fair price, anyway. Of course we could always try to steal it from them using an embassy, but such actions cost a lot of money and sometimes fail, causing an international incident and giving super-aggressive Germany a reason to declare war.

	19-08-2002 02:40									#35
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This is very difficult. I hope the ministers have some long term plans. You don't really have to convince me of anything. You people have to convince eachother. I am just here to see what is most need and then make plans on how best to achieve it.

Let us review

Project lain:
1. Continue Researching Feudalism, buying it if possible
2. Buy Monotheism
3. Research Chivalry
Supported by:
Aggie
MrWhereItsAt (through Monotheism)
adaMada
UberKruX

A. Gunpowder Rush:
1. Research or Buy Engineering
2. Research (possibly buy) Invention
3. Research Gunpowder
Supported by:
GodKing (through Invention)
Shiber
MrWhereItsAt
Aggie
adaMada
Sheik
UberKruX

B. Democracy Rush:
1. Start Researching Theology, but Buy it as soon as possible
2. Research Education
3. Research Banking
4. Research Democracy
Supported by:
GePap
Spiffor

C. Astronomy Rush:
1. Theology
2. Education
3. Astronomy
Supported by:
Donal Graeme
Epistax
Aro

Some also want to get a government somewhere in that time. It will be hard to fit it in. I'd really like to try to steal through an embassy

Last edited by Apocalypse on 19-08-2002 at 07:00

	19-08-2002 02:46									#36
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Knights soon would be great

for long ranging goals i'd like militarty tradition. duh.

	19-08-2002 02:50									#37
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If we want our science minisrty to be useful, we shouldn't go for Plan Lain : we'll badly need a building period before going to any war (esp. with the Greeks) after the mopup of Americans.
If we don't, we won't be able to research by ourselves, in a time where tech costs get bigger and bigger (remember, we're still unable to buy monotheism, even if we offer our whole present and future treasury)

Since Education and Banking are in the way to Democracy, and universities + banks will be needed to catch back on our late, we should rush for Democracy, undoubtedly.

Knights are extremely useful in Civ3. But in Apolytonia, building knights will be contraproductive : the survivng AIs have some infrastructure (+ production bonuses) to outproduce our empire filled with corrupt, small cities. We are completely unable to keep up in case of a knight's war. Peace should be kept at all costs, because these costs wold be much lower than having the German / Greek powerhouse attacking us.
Now, the Immortal threat. Much less fearsome now, because we'll have spearmen (who have a slight advantage on immortals when fortified) to defend our cities, and our swordsmen will be good enough to counterattack the immortals.
Plus, Persia still has not Iron nor Horses, and is more theatened (by brits) than threatening.

I say we rush for Democracy, and forget about knights. Giving in to potential German demands will certainly be much less expansive than researching for chivalry. Techs aren't cheap anymore, and we can't hope to buy them for all eternity. We need education and banking as soon as possible, as much as we need some time to build our infrastructure.

In fewer words :
NO to project Lain
YES to Democracy rush (but we must continue to research feudalism : no need to waste bulbs and money).

	19-08-2002 02:59									#38
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Just FYI, the costs of stealing Republic from Germany are as follows:
Immediately: 856 gold - low chance of success.
Carefully: 1284 - moderate chance of success.
Safely: 1712 - high chance of success.

Even with the money we'll get from my mapwhoring project, from selling currency to the Iroquois and by stealing from France's treasury when we conquer their cities we'll still need about 20 turns to amass such an amount of cash, assuming that we don't upgrade any more units, and by then Germany will probably offer us Republic for a better price.

	19-08-2002 03:04									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Just FYI, the costs of stealing Republic from Germany are as follows: Immediately: 856 gold - low chance of success. Carefully: 1284 - moderate chance of success. Safely: 1712 - high chance of success. Even with the money we'll get from my mapwhoring project, from selling currency to the Iroquois and by stealing from France's treasury when we conquer their cities we'll still need about 20 turns to amass such an amount of cash, assuming that we don't upgrade any more units, and by then Germany will probably offer us Republic for a better price.

We don't want Republic right at this exactly moment anyway. We have too many units and the upkeep cost would be too high. We would not want to switch over until after the war with France (and maybe even the war to finish off America). That is enough time for the price to go down.

	19-08-2002 03:06									#40
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I assume the point of the astronomy rush is to make first contact with the other continent. This plan is risky but has nice rewards.

IF we make first contact, we can trade communications and WM's for every tech anyone on the planet knows. We might not have to spend a dime if we do things right, and we will gain much money.

We'd also have Universities following the plan, and could dive right into Banking and Democracy.


IF someone else makes contact first

We will have wasted time on theology, but could still be in line for democracy.


So, who wants to make a Civ-wide bet?

	19-08-2002 03:28									#41
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Here is a new choice:
Protocol Eiri.

Since many people view Chivalry as unnecessary, and Monotheism being part of lain, this Protocol is to get Monotheism.

It goes like this:
1. Monotheism
2. Theology
3. Education

It is really not a Project in itself, it just continues where the termination of lain leaves off and brings you to the choice of either the Democracy or Astronomy Rush.

	19-08-2002 03:38									#42
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Protocol Eiri
(but I still think we must continue researching Feudalism until we can buy it, or until we completed it if the AI ran for something else).

	19-08-2002 03:39									#43
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There is no way I am switching from Feudalism.

A, B, C, and Protocol Eiri are all choices after Feudalism.

	19-08-2002 05:11									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax So, who wants to make a Civ-wide bet?

Astronomy rush for me!

	19-08-2002 07:07									#45
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Right now I am viewing this as two options after Feudalism:
1. Complete lain and go onto Project A
2. Protocol Eiri and go onto either Project B or C

I would really appreciate it if you guys tried to convince eachother. I am probably not going to go against a majority.

I myself am not sure which to throw support behind. I see both the advantages in either Project B or C. I also don't think Gunpowder will be that useful as I doubt we have saltpeter. That Gunpowder Rush will get us Invention though, which is very important. If we go through with Project A, it is possibly I may cut it short after Invention if popular support wants it.

	19-08-2002 11:29									#46
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After reviewing all the facts, I think that rushing for Astronomy requires too much planning ahead. We might get it just to find the Greeks stumbled upon a Zulu Destroyer. However, I do think that we should rush for Education, after finishing Feudalism. We don't know if we will have access to Saltpeter, so Gunpowder is iffy, but Education can put us on to the path to Democracy or Astronomy. IMO, it would be easier to get to Astronomy, as it would take only 4 techs, compared to the 6 of Democracy. So I say rush for Education, access to Cathedrals and Universitys could really boost our Economy, by allowing for larger cities and selling techs.

	19-08-2002 17:25									#47
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OK... time to get things straight. I support the following techs as soon as we can get them.

Feudalism (we are currently 24 turns away from this)

Monotheism - we NEED cathedrals if we are going to do any growing at all - the 4th citizen is unhappy without a temple, with a temple we can't currently get beyond 5 (we have one luxury resource - Dyes)

Gunpowder - a major advance, I hope everyone will agree. Paves the way for future military units, whenever we go for them. Concerns have been raised about whether we will have Saltpeter or not - remember it appears on Hills and Mountains as well as Deserts. Surely it can't be bad to at least find these resources so we know where to get them when they are wanted badly enough! And if we do have it, what a bonus to have Musketmen before any other Civ uses them!

Otherwise, the techs are far off, but I see the point in aiming for Banking, which will help with money stresses. Education is something many are outspoken about getting, but let's look at it for a minute:

We can build Universities - great for science and culture, but expensive (4g/turn). There is little way we could support this without a Republic, which necessitates both getting that tech as well as a major disarmament and population growth for it to be worthwhile. The Great Library is also cancelled - what if (unlikely as it is) we get this from Paris? We don't want to expire it until we have leeched as much as we can get out of it. Granted, Paris will come long before we turn towards Education, but it is a double-edged sword as it is.

Democracy is a far-off tech, and presents the same problems for us as Republic - we need to be sure that we are stopping our aggressive expansion and developing furiously before any such government choice.

And as for Astronomy - whyyy??? Are we planning on becoming a sea-power now?

	19-08-2002 17:35									#48
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A great summary MWIA, some good points raised.
Just to clarify: I personally don't know why people are aiming at Astronomy. I think they might be confusing this with Navigation which comes after Astronomy and will allow us to find the missing continents / islands.
Now, it would be great to have Navigation but we shouldn't worry about not being the first to find the lost civs. From my experience the AI only begins to travel ocean tiles in search of new islands and continents until very late in the game (no sooner than the beginning of the industrial era).

	19-08-2002 20:42									#49
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quote: Democracy is a far-off tech, and presents the same problems for us as Republic - we need to be sure that we are stopping our aggressive expansion and developing furiously before any such government choice.

Well, since we won't be able to compete with other's infrastructures and production bonuses(Greeks, Germans, Brits, or Persians if they get to iron), we'll be unable to to have an agressive expansion. Agressive expansion, before we've built a serious infrastructure, would be as irrealistic as a builder's strategy was at the beginning of the game.
Democracy should arrive just in time after we've cleared this jungle, and built cathedrals / libraries etc. in every important city (if we invest heavily in building : the sooner our libraries and universities are out the better)

	19-08-2002 21:01									#50
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Project Lain is it, of course .

Trying to steal the Republic through an embassy is a nice method to burn money and gain nothing. Republic is a completely useless tech right now, given the fact that without martial law the 2nd citizen is unhappy (and not the 4th, MWIA, that's Regent) and that we have to pay upkeep for every unit. We'll have to continue warfare for a while more. We still need a leader for an FP, we still need to hook up 2 more luxuries (french wines and american incense will do). And playing the nice guy without a sufficient and well-developed military is on a map with 11 neighbors just hazard.

Ah yes, Spiffors proposal, that giving in on extortions of our multiple neighbors is cheaper than researching (or buying) Chivalry deserves the " of the week" award.

	19-08-2002 21:11									#51
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We are going to need those knights for quite some time in the middle ages, so stick with Project Lain

btw, how many of us actually know what "Lain" is? I'm surprised to see the reference, actually. Interesting choice for a title.

Rush to Musketeers and tech-trade us close to Democracy and Astronomy.

Of course, without a research budget, Apoc's not going to get very far very fast.

--Togas

	19-08-2002 21:17									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Togas btw, how many of us actually know what "Lain" is? I'm surprised to see the reference, actually. Interesting choice for a title. --Togas

Now I'm curious. What is "Lain"?

	19-08-2002 21:20									#53
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I have reconsidered my earlier advice to try for Astronomy. I have looked at the game file, and realized how stupid I was. Does anyone realize how long it will take a size four city to build a cathedral? Forever, and the same for a University. At this point, military options are much more viable. By stealing luxuries, or buying them (the less prefered), we can make people happier much easier than we could by constructing expensive buildings. Also, I keep on forgetting that we are next to Bismark, who happens to be the most agressive guy around. If we give him any opening, he will declare war on us. So I know support getting to Gunpowder at the very least, and maybe even Military Tradition. With Cavalry we could gain any tech we want, simply by taking their capital from them. Also, since Cavalry remain the main line attack unit until Tanks, they will be very useful for a long time.

	19-08-2002 22:13									#54
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Cathedral = 80 shields (we're religious)
Knights = 70 shields.

I don't see how knights are more viable than cathedrals.

	19-08-2002 22:19									#55
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After one of the 11 AI civs has attacked us, you will.

	19-08-2002 22:32									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Aro Now I'm curious. What is "Lain"?

A short Japanese anime series about a teenage girl who's confusing world is a blur between the "wired" and normal world. It's odd, beautiful, and bizzare with, perhaps, the coolest opening theme song in the history of Japanese animation.

The series itself is difficult to explain and follow, but there is a group called the Knights in the Wired world that play an important role in the story.

This link for any curious fans: URL=http://misslain.homestead.com/]Lain Info[/URL]

--Togas

	19-08-2002 22:32									#57
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[Civ3 general rant]Civ3 is urealistic !!!!! [/Civ3 general rant]

I don't know if you already had an appeasement policy in your Civ3 games. I'm used to them (do them all the time). In only ONE game I have been attacked despite, because I had absolutely no iron and a crapstart. In all my other games, appeasement tactics proven quite cheap (about 40 gold every 10 turns or so in medieval), and unrealisticly efficient.

We need a good defense force (30-shields pikemen), in order not to be a too easy target. If we do like this, the AI will accept not to attack us, because we'd be a difficulty.
Besides our cheap cathedrals will give us more culture (more tolerant AI), and above all, more people able to work and make us shields.

Making knights would serve a short-term purpose if we really were threatened. But with the adequate numbers of pikemen, the threat is far from being great.
When 2nd American campaign is over, we won't have to struggle for our survival anymore, except if we forget to build our infrastructure, and enter late medieval / early industrial unprepared.

	20-08-2002 01:55									#58
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I agree spiffor. The AI recognizes when it will have a hard fight against someone (the our military is the same size message) or an easy one, and is far more likely to attack or bully an easy target that a hard one. If after france we have enough force to go after america again, and we choose to do so, then we will need to focus on our defences and infrastructure. I intend to start now by getting some graineries in cities that will become our powerhouses (and that don't need aquaducts) even though anything above a 5 pop is worthless at this time. we can use these cities for churning out settlers and workers until we have the ability to build cathedrals and enough lux to make a real difference.

I still thing that invention should be a high priority, with or without gunpowder, as leo's workshop is just to good to just blow it off. Think of it this way - from spear to musket is 60 gp (if I remember correct - I am at work), with 2-3 in each city, and a total of 15 cities, that means we have to spend 2000 +/- to upgrade. with leo's, it is 1/2 or only 1000 +/-. If money counts, this is the first and best way to save it (unless you think we won't need to upgrade....)

	20-08-2002 02:41									#59
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Do what you want. After Bismarck or Xerxes took the first 2 cities and people ask, where our military is, I will bump this thread.

	20-08-2002 03:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Togas A short Japanese anime series about a teenage girl who's confusing world is a blur between the "wired" and normal world. It's odd, beautiful, and bizzare with, perhaps, the coolest opening theme song in the history of Japanese animation. The series itself is difficult to explain and follow, but there is a group called the Knights in the Wired world that play an important role in the story.

It isn't just the Knights. You also have God in there and there is a French connection. Eiri is also a reference from Lain. I finished watching the series Sunday morning. I'm also listening to Boa's Duvet right now.

You people aren't arguing enough. This is one of the most important decisions of the game. It will decide what we will do in at least the next 3 or 4 months. I am making sure I don't have a strong opinion on this. I will just choose what people say is the best option, and then defend that decision in various threads.

For those of you thinking about govenment techs, here is some stuff from a thread on Republic v. Monarchy:

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless The key to winning in Civ3 is the constant warfare. You need to have GLs, free workers, and resources to build up your civ, and to weeken AI civs at same time. To fight wars, you must be in Monarchy.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus There are some differences that matter, given certain circumstances. Here are the differences tht I can think of: * Free units: Monarchy - 2 for towns, 4 for cities, and 8 for metros. Republic - none. * Military police: Monarchy - up to 3. Republic - none. * War Weariness: Monarchy - none. Republic - some (level 1). * Corruption: Monarchy - some (level 2). Republic - less (level 1). * Tile bonus (not sure if I know this well): Monarchy - none. Republic - yes... I believe it is +1 gold for cities and +2 gold for metros. So, if you are committed to a large military, Monarchy goes a long way. If you have a large empire, and a smallish military (what are you thinking?), then Republic can pay off.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian As I discovered in my "game of ultimate power" Monarchy corruption is pretty much comparable to Republic corruption - it's just that you have a huge drop-off in total commerce generated. But, like you point out, you don't have to pay for your armed forces. I was supporting huge numbers of units, had well-placed Palace & FP, and most of my "core" cities were on rivers or lakes, meaning they were all size 12 and generating a fair amount of trade. The only time I really debate between republic and monarchy is if I'm playing a non-religious civ. If I'm religious, I can just switch whenever. If I'm not, this is a big decision. I've gone both ways with it. First, in the aforementioned GoUP, I went with Monarchy and had a lot of success with it. In my most recent Chinese warmongering rampage, I went with republic... and had quite a bit of success with that. WW was hardly a factor, because large numbers of Riders can tear through an AI empire pretty quick