18-08-2002 21:08									#1
	Area 25 : Tech Plans - Project lain Enter the AD-FREE zone

First off, Area 25 is like the Apolyton equivent of Area 51. This is where we secretly research new things. It is reportedly located somewhere outside of Geofront.

Second, this thread does not exist.

Third, time ot talk about tech plans.

I am continuing the original plan for now:
1. Continue Researching Feudalism, buying it if possible.
2. Buy Monotheism.
3. Research Chivalry.

It has been the plan for over a while now so I decided to give it a name. It will be called "Project lain." I was originally going to call it "Plan Southern Hospitality" but I was thinking about it during mass today and realized "lain" had even more to do with our current position than referencing the southern virture of Chivalry.

Forth and finally, I want to get your input on what our next course of action should be. We will probably be able to buy Republic and Monarchy cheap once we decide for switch governments so there is no point in going after those. This is where the second yet unnamed plan may start. Right now I am proposing two options.

A. Gunpowder Rush:
1. Buy Engineering
2. Research (possibly buy) Invention
3. Research Gunpowder

B. Democracy Rush:
1. Start Researching Theology, but Buy it as soon as possible
2. Research Education
3. Research Banking
4. Research Democracy

I'm not advocating either of these plans yet since they are still a while away. I'm just putting them out there for your input.

	18-08-2002 21:23									#2
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If most people support starting a building phase after the French war while we eliminate the Americans then why should we research Chivalry anyway?
I suggest the following: after the French war, invade America with whatever is left of our attack force (a few swordsmen and archers should prove to be just enough to take our America I believe). No need to research knights before we attack America IMHO.
In the mean time we'll be making our way towards gunpowder which will give us saltpaper (useful for production and trade. Just what we need for a building phase) and musketmen (another must-have for a building phase is strong garrison units in case we find ourselves under attack). This path could also lead us to navigation and the ability to sail the high seas soon and find the lost civs (I believe we all recognize the advantages of being the first to discover the "lost civs" by now).
Why not to research Democracy instead: currently our infrastructure is lacking. Some of our cities don't even have temples yet and only a few have a second structure, which is barracks. On the way to Democracy we'll get technologies that will enable us to build magnificent structures such as universities and banks, but we've got libraries, marketplaces and soon cathedrals to build first, so all the technologies on the way to Democracy (theology, education, banking and the printing press) will be virtually worthless to us until much later in the game.

	18-08-2002 21:26									#3
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Another option (just throwing a thought out) -- we could rush for Calvary, and get everything else through Tech-trading... in my experience, the AI doesn't rush for Calv, so we could have it first, and techwhore to Democracy. If we do get Calv, then we'd be a huge military power, and could probably crush a decent sized enemy before the AI got it, especially if we built a lot of knights for an upgrade path once we had it.

-- adaMada

	18-08-2002 21:28									#4
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Project lain was thought up over 10 days ago after talking to ministers. We may not need to go all the way through with it though. This is why I said "continuing the original plan for now." We could stop after Monotheism. It really depends on the situation we find ourselves in.

	18-08-2002 21:45									#5
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These situations include problems with the Germans, Greeks, and Persians. Our relationship with those civs could change drastically in the next 20 or so turns. Though I believe the Greeks will stay friendly for now, I am wary of the Persians and Germans. We may need Chivarly to counter Immortals.

	18-08-2002 22:18									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse These situations include problems with the Germans, Greeks, and Persians. Our relationship with those civs could change drastically in the next 20 or so turns. Though I believe the Greeks will stay friendly for now, I am wary of the Persians and Germans. We may need Chivarly to counter Immortals.

I agree on Chivarly -- without it, we are a military non-force, and we'll be moving into a time where the AI stops REXing and becomes willing to start wars. I am curious though, if anyone has a copy of the tech tree in front of them -- what would it take to expand the Gunpowder rush to get all the way to Mil. Tradition (Calvary, basically). If we plan to have a massive conquest of our continent, having Calvary before everyone else does would be a real help, especially if we could crush a civ before people get Rifleman. Clearly, we could become very powerful by pursuing this strategy...

-- adaMada

	18-08-2002 22:27									#7
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It expand it to Military Tradition the plan would be:
1. Buy Engineering
2. Research (possibly buy) Invention
3. Research Gunpowder
4. Chemistry
5. Metallurgy
6. Military Tradition

I want to limit plans to a max of 5 techs though so that would be an actual plan. The next plans would be thought up while researching Invention. Those last three techs would be part of a whole new plan:
1. Chemistry
2. Metallurgy
3. Military Tradition

	18-08-2002 22:29									#8
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Keep in mind I will not go ahead with any miltary related tech plan that Uber does not support. I want to work with the military branch so we can coordinate.

	18-08-2002 22:34									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Keep in mind I will not go ahead with any miltary related tech plan that Uber does not support. I want to work with the military branch so we can coordinate.

Yes, of course . Having said that, I've got a hunch that if you tell Uber that it's possible we can have Calv. first (perhaps one of the best military units in the game for it's time), and maybe do another upgrade plan so we can have lots fast -- I don't think he'd mind .

-- adaMada

	18-08-2002 22:42									#10
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I might not support a rush to Calv though. At this point in time, military expansion is great. We might have carved out the land we want from Greece, the Germans, and Persia by the time we get Gunpowder. This is assuming we'll go with the "A" plan (I'll have a name for it later tonight, I already have a good one in mind, MWIA should like it). In the games I play I rarely go on a conquering spree. I usually just focus on culture. The main reason I haven't focused on that in this game is because we are in a bad position for culture.

I'm also going to listen to the citizens first and foremost when I make my plans. Along with Uber, I'll also take into heavy consideration suggestions from the other ministers.

	18-08-2002 22:45									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse It expand it to Military Tradition the plan would be: 1. Buy Engineering 2. Research (possibly buy) Invention 3. Research Gunpowder 4. Chemistry 5. Metallurgy 6. Military Tradition I want to limit plans to a max of 5 techs though so that would be an actual plan. The next plans would be thought up while researching Invention. Those last three techs would be part of a whole new plan: 1. Chemistry 2. Metallurgy 3. Military Tradition

So basically (if we decide to go that route), then the plan would be split in two halves of three techs, so we don't find ourselves bound to a plan and have the global situation change on us?

-- adaMada

	18-08-2002 22:49									#12
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada So basically (if we decide to go that route), then the plan would be split in two halves of three techs, so we don't find ourselves bound to a plan and have the global situation change on us?

That is the idea, though I will never bind myself to a specific plan. It is just that 6 techs would be too many turns in the future. We could very well stop on Gunpowder and focus on something else. Gunpowder is a good tech in an of itself. There is also not too much point in going after Chemistry and Metallurgy if you don't then go for Military Tradition.

	18-08-2002 22:50									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse I might not support a rush to Calv though. At this point in time, military expansion is great. We might have carved out the land we want from Greece, the Germans, and Persia by the time we get Gunpowder. This is assuming we'll go with the "A" plan (I'll have a name for it later tonight, I already have a good one in mind, MWIA should like it). In the games I play I rarely go on a conquering spree. I usually just focus on culture. The main reason I haven't focused on that in this game is because we are in a bad position for culture. I'm also going to listen to the citizens first and foremost when I make my plans. Along with Uber, I'll also take into heavy consideration suggestions from the other ministers.

You make a good point, and one very good reason to do the split plan you spoke of -- if we get gunpowder, and find that we don't need Mil. Tradition anymore, then we can just switch plans.

My personal feeling is this, though -- If we find ourselves without Calvary, and a nation should decide to go to war with us (who has Calv.), we'd be in a bad spot. That doesn't mean we should do the calv. rush, but we might want to keep it in mind before totally writing off a Calvary plan -- even if we decide we're done with war by the time Mil. Tradition comes around, other nations might not...

-- adaMada

	18-08-2002 22:51									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse That is the idea, though I will never bind myself to a specific plan. It is just that 6 techs would be too many turns in the future. We could very well stop on Gunpowder and focus on something else. Gunpowder is a good tech in an of itself. There is also not too much point in going after Chemistry and Metallurgy if you don't then go for Military Tradition.

I'm basically in total agreement with everything you say in this post .

-- adaMada

	18-08-2002 22:56									#15
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada My personal feeling is this, though -- If we find ourselves without Calvary, and a nation should decide to go to war with us (who has Calv.), we'd be in a bad spot. That doesn't mean we should do the calv. rush, but we might want to keep it in mind before totally writing off a Calvary plan -- even if we decide we're done with war by the time Mil. Tradition comes around, other nations might not...

If we don't get Calv first then it is probably because we decided to focus on infastruction. Focusing on infastructure would mean we have money. That means we would probably just be able to buy Calv.

	18-08-2002 23:04									#16
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I like the current plan and would then urge a push toward gun powder. Rememeber we will soon have to deal with the greeks so we will need knights. Though I still forsee afairly peaceful period between wars.
Aggie

	18-08-2002 23:07									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse If we don't get Calv first then it is probably because we decided to focus on infastruction. Focusing on infastructure would mean we have money. That means we would probably just be able to buy Calv.

Understood, and I agree in general, but do have two thoughts:

First, what if only one civ has Calvery, and that civ decides to declare war on us (basically what I propose we do to someone else)? Any thoughts on what would happen in that case?

Second, how much would it cost to buy? Sometimes the AI can be really nasty about not giving you the one tech you need, or making you pay a ton for it... any chance that we'll get caught being unable to buy it, no matter how much money we have?

Just trying to hash out our options and the affects of them...

On an unrelated note, does anyone not agree that we should at least go for Gunpowder?

-- adaMada

	18-08-2002 23:09									#18
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That makes 2/3 supporting Project lain and 3/3 supporting a rush to Gunpowder.

	18-08-2002 23:11									#19
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I hate not being on at least a military tech par with most other civs, so I would go for the rush to Gunpowder. If we got there early, we would be in a better position to ensure we had the Salpeter we need - we are in the smelly brown stuff if we can't get it.

Currently, if we wanted to stop conquering and develop, I see two techs as vital: Monotheism (for the Cathedrals - we'll have unhappiness when we try to grow very far) and Monarchy, so that we can grow at a reasonable pace.

Thus I like the current plan, including swapping for/buying whatever we can get that isn't too crippling a deal, with the aim to hit Gunpowder as soon after as we can. If we keep our focus on wars, however, we may need to circumvent Mono and boulder on towards Military Tradition.

I guess we will be in a better position to decide our long-term strategy once Paris becomes "Here It Is"....

El Presidente
MrWIA

	18-08-2002 23:12									#20
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As Minister of the Economy I would like to offer my advice on the situation at hand.

I believe that a rush straight for cavalry would be an ill suited adventure. It would take us forever to get there, considering it will be a while before we can actually research techs in less than 20 or so turns. I am apprehensive about researching Gunpowder as well, though. Last I checked, we didn't have any land that would appear well suited for saltpeter, except near America. So the odds of us getting it except through a war to finish off America are very low. Knights offer us a much quicker, and more versatile unit for now. Considering that we intend to launch wars, and not be the victims of some other power, a defensive unit like Musketman may not be necessary. My personal preference is a rush toward Astronomy. On the way we will research stuff that will make ppl happy, as well as increase our research. This would be good. Plus, we would be able to get Banking fairly quickly, which would help increase our GPT. There is a point for rushing for either Democracy or Military Tradition: the AI tends to ignore them. Hence we should be able to trade them away for other techs with the advantage on our side. Democracy would be harder to research however, as it requires Banking, which would neccessitate us getting Education on the way. The real question is this:
Do we want to continue using trades as our primary means of getting techs, or do we intend to research them ourselves? If we research ourselves, go for Democracy, if we want to trade, go for Military Tradition. If we go for military tradition, we can trade for all the techs the AI gets, but if we want to research, then we go for Democracy, as the AI will help us out in getting to Banking.

Edit: I like the idea of getting Banking, as the increased GPT helps us when it comes to trades of all kinds.

	18-08-2002 23:15									#21
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada First, what if only one civ has Calvery, and that civ decides to declare war on us (basically what I propose we do to someone else)? Any thoughts on what would happen in that case?

We would probably realize what was happening and adjust military and research plans accordingy so we would be rushing for Military Tradition. It is hard to see that far ahead though, which is why I don't like plans 6 techs a head and MT is 9 techs away if we go through with Project lain.

quote: Originally posted by adaMada Second, how much would it cost to buy? Sometimes the AI can be really nasty about not giving you the one tech you need, or making you pay a ton for it... any chance that we'll get caught being unable to buy it, no matter how much money we have?

I have no idea how much it would cost. If a few Civs have it we might get it (relatively) cheap. If we are focusing on infastructure we'll probably have Banking or something like that to trade off to help lower the cost.

quote: Originally posted by adaMada Just trying to hash out our options and the affects of them...

That's good. It is the point of this thread.

quote: Originally posted by adaMada On an unrelated note, does anyone not agree that we should at least go for Gunpowder?

Not at the moment it seems.

	18-08-2002 23:19									#22
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Thus I like the current plan, including swapping for/buying whatever we can get that isn't too crippling a deal, with the aim to hit Gunpowder as soon after as we can. If we keep our focus on wars, however, we may need to circumvent Mono and boulder on towards Military Tradition.

We shouldn't need to circumvernt Mono because we aren't going to research it, just buy it sometime before we are done with Feudalism.

	18-08-2002 23:26									#23
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada Second, how much would it cost to buy? Sometimes the AI can be really nasty about not giving you the one tech you need, or making you pay a ton for it... any chance that we'll get caught being unable to buy it, no matter how much money we have? -- adaMada

We can always try to steal the technology using an embassy.

	18-08-2002 23:28									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Donal Graeme As Minister of the Economy I would like to offer my advice on the situation at hand.

Thank you.

quote: Originally posted by Donal Graeme I Considering that we intend to launch wars, and not be the victims of some other power, a defensive unit like Musketman may not be necessary.

Germany and Persia might be knocking on our doorstep. We may need something to defend our cities.

quote: Originally posted by Donal Graeme My personal preference is a rush toward Astronomy. On the way we will research stuff that will make ppl happy, as well as increase our research. This would be good. Plus, we would be able to get Banking fairly quickly, which would help increase our GPT. There is a point for rushing for either Democracy or Military Tradition: the AI tends to ignore them. Hence we should be able to trade them away for other techs with the advantage on our side. Democracy would be harder to research however, as it requires Banking, which would neccessitate us getting Education on the way.

A rush to Astronomy would need at least the Mono part of Project lain to be completed. Here is the "C" plan, to be named later.
1. Theology
2. Education
3. Astronomy

You see, a rush towards Astronomy would require Education anyway so we can go for a rush towards Democracy after an Astronomy rush:
1. Banking
2. Printing Press
3. Democracy

quote: Originally posted by Donal Graeme The real question is this: Do we want to continue using trades as our primary means of getting techs, or do we intend to research them ourselves? If we research ourselves, go for Democracy, if we want to trade, go for Military Tradition. If we go for military tradition, we can trade for all the techs the AI gets, but if we want to research, then we go for Democracy, as the AI will help us out in getting to Banking.

Either way a lot of trading is important. The Science budget should go up drastically after the wars though, allowing these rushes to be possible.

	18-08-2002 23:37									#25
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BTW, I hope at least everyone supports the rushing idea. I feel that is the best way to research techs as we can just buy the others. Through rushing we will also always have a tech to sell once we research it.

	18-08-2002 23:44									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse BTW, I hope at least everyone supports the rushing idea. I feel that is the best way to research techs as we can just buy the others. Through rushing we will also always have a tech to sell once we research it.

I agree with the rushing idea, but wouldn't always agree with the selling part -- part of the point of rushing is to be the first civ to a given goal, and if that goal gives you a decisive advantage over the other civs, it really shouldn't be sold without a great deal of thought...

Besides that, though, rushing is clearly the way to go -- rushing one line of the map, and techwhoring the rest.

-- adaMada

	19-08-2002 00:20									#27
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I would like to see us aim for these, in this order:

Invention - Leo's Place is a cost saver we will dearly want if we continue tech whoring

Monarchy - I most of my games, the AI wants a fortune for any government until near the beginning of the industrial age, so purchacing is usually very expensive. There are just too many bonusus to skip this however.

Monotheism - cathedrals are a must for us religious banana worshipers, particularly when we want large cities.

Trade for all that we can, however the sooner we have them, the sooner we can take advantage of their benifits. Thanks.

	19-08-2002 00:22									#28
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You people are dreaming. We have to go through a building period before we can research new technologies ourselves! At the moment we make lousy GPT and don't have a single library.
If you ask me, we should start building after we finish with the French and aim towards gunpowder so we can guard our borders while we concentrate on cathedrals, marketplaces and libraries. Only then will we be able to research techs faster.

EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean to sound patronizing. I hope I didn't insult anyone.

Last edited by Shiber on 19-08-2002 at 01:15

	19-08-2002 00:33									#29
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Shiber I think you are right. Gunpowder should be a major priority.

	19-08-2002 01:40									#30
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada I agree with the rushing idea, but wouldn't always agree with the selling part -- part of the point of rushing is to be the first civ to a given goal, and if that goal gives you a decisive advantage over the other civs, it really shouldn't be sold without a great deal of thought...

We might need to sell some techs. You see, with putting resources toward science we won't have as much money. We may not be able to buy all the techs we want without selling the techs we research ourselves.

quote: Originally posted by GodKing I would like to see us aim for these, in this order: Invention - Leo's Place is a cost saver we will dearly want if we continue tech whoring Monarchy - I most of my games, the AI wants a fortune for any government until near the beginning of the industrial age, so purchacing is usually very expensive. There are just too many bonusus to skip this however. Monotheism - cathedrals are a must for us religious banana worshipers, particularly when we want large cities. Trade for all that we can, however the sooner we have them, the sooner we can take advantage of their benifits.

1. I think if we are going to go for Invention we might as well go for Gunpowder.

2. We may end up needing to research Monarchy after Project lain. I'm like to see if it goes down after that.

3. Hopefully we can buy Monotheism so we can speed along Project lain.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber You people are dreaming. We have to go through a building period before we can research new technologies ourselves! At the moment we make lousy GPT and don't have a single library. If you ask me, we should start building after we finish with the French and aim towards gunpowder so we can guard our borders while we concentrate on cathedrals, marketplaces and libraries. Only then will we be able to research techs faster.

By the time Project lain is completed, we will probably have more infastructure built up and possibly a new government. This should allow us to research fast enough to get a lead in techs. Also, since having a tech partially researched can lower the cost, then well will save more money.