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candidgamera
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NW PA, USA
Feb 2002
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Willem
With the last patch, the number of a particular resource has been increased to a total of 90 each, a threefold increase. However, it seems that there's an absolute limit. The more strategic recources I add, the less bonus ones I end up with. So there's room for much more complexity as to requirements, but only so much. I'm finding it best to keep it to basics.
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Almost like bonus resources should have an independent appearance rate maybe. Have to confess haven't played much yet with adding resources, units, ect. - just working basic system.
quote:
Originally posted by Willem
I've added Limestone as a building requirement, it's an important ingredient for concrete. I hadn't considered it for Steel though, I should keep that in mind for my Battleships etc. Though I suspect that I have all my resource slots for that unit filled up by now. |
Was my problem in a hurry for things that need steel (coal & iron in game as is) and oil and say rubber (seals, gaskets, ect.) - like tanks - kind of had to compromise.
Another few thought of:
diamonds - very important for modern industry - am to understand WWII in Europe would have ended 1-2 years early if they'd not gotten diamonds smuggled out through Vichy-occupied Africa from southern Africa.
zinc - for brass, all kinds of stuff
magnesium - important for aluminum alloys
rare earth magnetic material like neodynium & samarium
for the ancients - spearmen/hoplite could require tin & copper
seems like copper would be good anyway - have to have for electricity.
Liked the one above on timber for ships.
Gold might be better as strategic too rather than an all to common extra.
Some common important alloys, what's in them, uses:
Hastelloys - Nickel/Chrome/Iron/Moly/sometimes cobalt - piping and other stuff to deal with high temp and corrosive chemicals.
Inconels - Nickel/Iron/Chrome/sometimes cobalt - nuclear reactors, jet engines - high temp, strength, corrosion applications.
Stainless Steel - Nickel/Chrome/Iron/Moly
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Willem
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by candidgamera
Almost like bonus resources should have an independent appearance rate maybe. Have to confess haven't played much yet with adding resources, units, ect. - just working basic system. |
quote:
for the ancients - spearmen/hoplite could require tin & copper
seems like copper would be good anyway - have to have for electricity. |
I've added both to my game. The tin only has a limited use, mainly early in the game, but the copper is used for a number of things later, e.g. power stations, Hoover Dam, spaceship parts etc
quote:
Liked the one above on timber for ships.. |
That seemed rather obvious to me, I don't know why Firaxis didn't include it themselves.
quote:
Gold might be better as strategic too rather than an all to common extra. |
Yes, it didn't make sense to me that Gold was more common in the game than Iron was. I've made it a requirement for Banks, and some gov specific versions of Wall Street I've created.
quote:
Some common important alloys, what's in them, uses:
Hastelloys - Nickel/Chrome/Iron/Moly/sometimes cobalt - piping and other stuff to deal with high temp and corrosive chemicals..
Inconels - Nickel/Iron/Chrome/sometimes cobalt - nuclear reactors, jet engines - high temp, strength, corrosion applications.
Stainless Steel - Nickel/Chrome/Iron/Moly |
Yes well, there are limits, so it's best not to get to carried away.
I've also been adding some invisible resources, to represent the creativity of the people themselves. One is Artistry, another is Discovery, then finally Revelation, or Rapture as I'm calling it. I don't think Revelation will fit in the right-click graphic window. These three will represent the creative, scientific, and religious inspirations of my civilization.
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candidgamera
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NW PA, USA
Feb 2002
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Willem
Yes, it didn't make sense to me that Gold was more common in the game than Iron was. I've made it a requirement for Banks, and some gov specific versions of Wall Street I've created.
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Am to assume you changed it to a Strategic from a bonus then?
sidebar: made my Wall Street (and Pentagon) require Corporation.
quote:
Originally posted by Willem
Yes well, there are limits, so it's best not to get to carried away.
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Of course, these are made anyway, but just intended to show importance of chrome, your nickel, moly, and cobalt.
quote:
Originally posted by Willem
I've also been adding some invisible resources, to represent the creativity of the people themselves. One is Artistry, another is Discovery, then finally Revelation, or Rapture as I'm calling it. I don't think Revelation will fit in the right-click graphic window. These three will represent the creative, scientific, and religious inspirations of my civilization. |
So in game terms how do you find these, or do you start with them, and what do they do?
On copper, make your own graphic then?
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Coracle
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Tin and Zinc. Vital for alloys of copper.
Maybe gold should be a resource unlike what it is now.
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Willem
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by candidgamera
Am to assume you changed it to a Strategic from a bonus then?
sidebar: made my Wall Street (and Pentagon) require Corporation. |
Yes, as it should be. The quest for gold has begun many a war throughout history.
quote:
So in game terms how do you find these, or do you start with them, and what do they do? |
I'm still playing with them. I've created 3 "inspiration" resources, Artistry, Discovery, which represents science, and Revelation, for religion. Each gives a 1/1/1 bonus to a square, but is also needed for various buildings. Revelation for Temple and Cathedral, Discovery for Library etc. I have a thread about it going on here:
Invisible Resource
As for finding them I don't really, they're just supposed to happen. But they do show up as extra food etc. in the city view, and I can find them by right clicking on the terrain, if I suspect they're there.
And no, my coppper icon is borrowed, I've just been using other peoples stuff. If it looks good I'll try to come up with a resource for it.
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candidgamera
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NW PA, USA
Feb 2002
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Willem
Yes, interesting approach, regarding the mass culture idea! I hadn't thought about it along those lines. It would be especially interesting using concepts like that for Luxuries. The moods of your citizens could be quite fluid that way in modern times. I'll have to keep that in mind.
The evolution of this approach has been rather interesting. It started out with someone wanting an earthquake resource, and the idea keeps getting fed along the way.  |
Was thinking some more about this: you could use this to emulate political trends, public opinion, ect. - what's PC for a society at the moment. We all know from experience that a civ in real life doesn't get to do "what's" best - like solar plants verses nuke ones or vice versa depending on your opinion - unless there's constituency and support for it. In Civ you get to do what you want without much interference - acting more like Stalin all the time - than "Mr. President". Europeans will put up with high taxes and will support subsidized railroads - Americans always want a tax break. Detroit labor sides with Bush on ANWR drilling, and so on.
Would work like real life on another level: Switzerland and Germany are small land mass democracies that behave/ can do things more cohesively than say the US which is huge and regionalized much more - this resource idea would mimic that I think a little. Big reason BTW why US has a hard time I think doing "Europe" solutions - many more powerful competing points of view. Of course Canada is more politically cohesive and big in land area  , but has small population - fewer cities, less territory in civ terms maybe is the way to think it. Would think there'd be more of this for democracies - making them more messy - like they really are:
So here's some example resources plus and minus each other, so the game plays you as much as you play it:
*Environmentalism
*Social Democracy
*Unionism
*Conservatism
*Public Works
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Willem
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by candidgamera
So here's some example resources plus and minus each other, so the game plays you as much as you play it:
*Environmentalism
*Social Democracy
*Unionism
*Conservatism
*Public Works |
Good ideas, but keep in mind that these are resources that the AI will put on it's bargaining table. Logically, I can't see it entering into a trade deal for these sorts of things. A few ideas I've come up with:
Consultant available with Corporation
Dot Com available with Computers
Virtuoso available with Music Theory
- (I'm thinking of something similar for Free Artistry, e.g. Picasso, but can't find a good name)
Pop Star available with Radio
BTW, my Minstrel unit works great, available with Artistry. A 0 unit with hidden nationality but no pillage/attack capablities. The AI can't destroy it, even the barbs have a hard time. I've seen both end up on the same square. Though it did finally get taken out by one of the barbs, so it's not indestructable. All it does is wander around, checking out the enemy's territory.
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Willem
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Canada
Dec 2001
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by dunk
I wouldn't add anything but bonus resources since they aren't that important for gameplay.
In order to reflect what modern military units actually need, we would have to add bunches of resources.
Timber I think is somewhat dubious. True, all trees aren't suitable, but most will suffice. As far as gameplay, it isn't very necessary. Although a civ without forests probably shouldn't be able to build wooden ships, that occurance is pretty rare. Perhaps another way to do it would be to eliminate a forest tile within your empire after every X number of "wood requiring" units built. That way, you would have to replenish your forests or run out of wood.
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I disagree, especially with your thoughts about Timber. There's not really that much wood that was suitable for the old sailing ships. First of all, it pretty much had to be Oak, which is not exactly the most common of trees, since nothing else was strong enough to take the pounding of an open ocean. And it had to be mature enough to provide large enough planks after being milled. There's a very good reason why the ancient Egyptians never became a serious naval power.
Personally I think Timber should have been a no-brainer when they were thinging of which resources to include.
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candidgamera
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NW PA, USA
Feb 2002
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Willem
Good ideas, but keep in mind that these are resources that the AI will put on it's bargaining table. Logically, I can't see it entering into a trade deal for these sorts of things.
BTW, my Minstrel unit works great, available with Artistry. |
Agreed, they really shouldn't be tradable.
To bad some couldn't be made untradeable, like splitting appearance of strategic from bonus resources.
Was thinking also this could also become silly also if you got something you didn't like you'd be tempted to pillage your own square - maybe a unhappiness penalty for that.
Granted all this is Civ 4 territory.
Am to assume the earthquake idea is to get random events into the game - opens up a lot of ground for scenarios. GMT has a series of very interesting games covering all kinds of wars, various periods, driven by card plays of events, actions, ect - economics, politics - elegantly and simply incorporated.
A lot of fun and a great way to learn a subject. Best ones I've played cover WWI & French&Indian War. Seems like this could be the vehicle to do it with in civ.
What do some of your units do, like the minstrel for example?
On ships & wood - good article in a National Geographic several years ago on what they did to remake some of the Constitution - some big, heavy cross-section pieces in that. Makes me wonder where Spain got all her wood for her Armada, from her colonies no doubt.
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Coracle
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I was wondering if rock quarries could be considered in some way. I am talking about valuable stuff, such as the best marble for sculture or luxury building.
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Coracle
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ANOTHER RESOURCE:
Natural Gas is a very important energy source.
The use of pipelines for it, and oil, might also be helpful.
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Coracle
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quote:
Originally posted by dunk
Ok, I'll agree with you about the real-life implications of good timber. But think of the game. You would be relegating some civs to isolation simply because of no timber. That's my main point. |
Timber had to be traded for or obtained if you were a major naval power. Britain, after decimating the forests in England and Scotland, began trading for it and buying it, be it in Scandinavia or Canada, or elsewhere.
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19-08-2002 18:12
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