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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramerman
Serb, I dont undertand, are you trying to argue that the US has been more attrocious than the Soviet Union? |
I realize that its shok for you, but yes, USA is damn evil country.
I'm not argue who was more attrocious USA or SU. I'm trying to say to DD that USA commited war crimes very often and that he has no right to judge us.
Just face it. Both of our nations brings a lot of misery to the World. Our undeclared war, the Cold war, cost millions of peoples lifes. Afghanistan, Vietnam, Angola, Korea, etc. every place where we have our "games" turned to place of suffering and misery. And both of our nations are responsible for that. BOTH.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Serb: You aren't trying anymore. Geoshities hardly counts as a serious source. |
Then try remaining 536 999 links about American war crimes, which Google can provide to you.
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BTW, did you ever crack open that history book like I suggested? |
Wtf do you mean? That I never read a history book?
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Bearcat
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Oregonia
Dec 1999
time: 05:21
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I took a look at Yahoo, trying your formula and found the following results. For Russian/Soviet War Crimes I was presented with 442 hits. For American War Crimes I was presented with 5 hits. However these results and very likely your Google results are flawed as well, seeings as on the first page of Russian/Soviet hits was a link containing a site detailing German war crimes as well as links containing sites detailing Japanese atomic research.
Just exactly how broad were the hits you found on Google? Did they actually detail the evil, imperialist American atrocities or did they just happen to mention the word American somewhere in the aritcle, hmmm?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Bearcat
Just exactly how broad were the hits you found on Google? Did they actually detail the evil, imperialist American atrocities or did they just happen to mention the word American somewhere in the aritcle, hmmm? |
You can always check it by yourself.
http://www.google.com./search?hl=en...ican+war+crimes
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:21
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quote:
Evidence. How anyone can artificialy create a famine? Shaman songs? Sorcery? Magic? |
http://www.historyplace.com/worldhi...cide/stalin.htm
"Joseph Stalin, leader of the Soviet Union, set in motion events designed to cause a famine in the Ukraine to destroy the people there seeking independence from his rule. As a result, an estimated 7,000,000 persons perished in this farming area, known as the breadbasket of Europe, with the people deprived of the food they had grown with their own hands.
The Ukrainian independence movement actually predated the Stalin era. Ukraine, which measures about the size of France, had been under the domination of the Imperial Czars of Russia for 200 years. With the collapse of the Czarist rule in March 1917, it seemed the long-awaited opportunity for independence had finally arrived. Optimistic Ukrainians declared their country to be an independent People's Republic and re-established the ancient capital city of Kiev as the seat of government.
However, their new-found freedom was short-lived. By the end of 1917, Vladimir Lenin, the first leader of the Soviet Union, sought to reclaim all of the areas formerly controlled by the Czars, especially the fertile Ukraine. As a result, four years of chaos and conflict followed in which Ukrainian national troops fought against Lenin's Red Army, and also against Russia's White Army (troops still loyal to the Czar) as well as other invading forces including the Germans and Poles.
By 1921, the battles ended with a Soviet victory while the western part of the Ukraine was divided-up among Poland, Romania, and Czechoslovakia. The Soviets immediately began shipping out huge amounts of grain to feed the hungry people of Moscow and other big Russian cities. Coincidentally, a drought occurred in the Ukraine, resulting in widespread starvation and a surge of popular resentment against Lenin and the Soviets.
To lessen the deepening resentment, Lenin relaxed his grip on the country, stopped taking out so much grain, and even encouraged a free-market exchange of goods. This breath of fresh air renewed the people's interest in independence and resulted in a national revival movement celebrating their unique folk customs, language, poetry, music, arts, and Ukrainian orthodox religion.
But when Lenin died in 1924, he was succeeded by Joseph Stalin, one of the most ruthless humans ever to hold power. To Stalin, the burgeoning national revival movement and continuing loss of Soviet influence in the Ukraine was completely unacceptable. To crush the people's free spirit, he began to employ the same methods he had successfully used within the Soviet Union. Thus, beginning in 1929, over 5,000 Ukrainian scholars, scientists, cultural and religious leaders were arrested after being falsely accused of plotting an armed revolt. Those arrested were either shot without a trial or deported to prison camps in remote areas of Russia.
Stalin also imposed the Soviet system of land management known as collectivization. This resulted in the seizure of all privately owned farmlands and livestock, in a country where 80 percent of the people were traditional village farmers. Among those farmers, were a class of people called Kulaks by the Communists. They were formerly wealthy farmers that had owned 24 or more acres, or had employed farm workers. Stalin believed any future insurrection would be led by the Kulaks, thus he proclaimed a policy aimed at "liquidating the Kulaks as a class."
Declared "enemies of the people," the Kulaks were left homeless and without a single possession as everything was taken from them, even their pots and pans. It was also forbidden by law for anyone to aid dispossessed Kulak families. Some researchers estimate that ten million persons were thrown out of their homes, put on railroad box cars and deported to "special settlements" in the wilderness of Siberia during this era, with up to a third of them perishing amid the frigid living conditions. Men and older boys, along with childless women and unmarried girls, also became slave-workers in Soviet-run mines and big industrial projects.
Back in the Ukraine, once-proud village farmers were by now reduced to the level of rural factory workers on large collective farms. Anyone refusing to participate in the compulsory collectivization system was simply denounced as a Kulak and deported.
A propaganda campaign was started utilizing eager young Communist activists who spread out among the country folk attempting to shore up the people's support for the Soviet regime. However, their attempts failed. Despite the propaganda, ongoing coercion and threats, the people continued to resist through acts of rebellion and outright sabotage. They burned their own homes rather than surrender them. They took back their property, tools and farm animals from the collectives, harassed and even assassinated local Soviet authorities. This ultimately put them in direct conflict with the power and authority of Joseph Stalin.
Soviet troops and secret police were rushed in to put down the rebellion. They confronted rowdy farmers by firing warning shots above the their heads. In some cases, however, they fired directly at the people. Stalin's secret police (GPU, predecessor of the KGB) also went to work waging a campaign of terror designed to break the people's will. GPU squads systematically attacked and killed uncooperative farmers.
But the resistance continued. The people simply refused to become cogs in the Soviet farm machine and remained stubbornly determined to return to their pre-Soviet farming lifestyle. Some refused to work at all, leaving the wheat and oats to rot in unharvested fields. Once again, they were placing themselves in conflict with Stalin.
In Moscow, Stalin responded to their unyielding defiance by dictating a policy that would deliberately cause mass starvation and result in the deaths of millions.
By mid 1932, nearly 75 percent of the farms in the Ukraine had been forcibly collectivized. On Stalin's orders, mandatory quotas of foodstuffs to be shipped out to the Soviet Union were drastically increased in August, October and again in January 1933, until there was simply no food remaining to feed the people of the Ukraine.
Much of the hugely abundant wheat crop harvested by the Ukrainians that year was dumped on the foreign market to generate cash to aid Stalin's Five Year Plan for the modernization of the Soviet Union and also to help finance his massive military buildup. If the wheat had remained in the Ukraine, it was estimated to have been enough to feed all of the people there for up to two years.
Ukrainian Communists urgently appealed to Moscow for a reduction in the grain quotas and also asked for emergency food aid. Stalin responded by denouncing them and rushed in over 100,000 fiercely loyal Russian soldiers to purge the Ukrainian Communist Party. The Soviets then sealed off the borders of the Ukraine, preventing any food from entering, in effect turning the country into a gigantic concentration camp. Soviet police troops inside the Ukraine also went house to house seizing any stored up food, leaving farm families without a morsel. All food was considered to be the "sacred" property of the State. Anyone caught stealing State property, even an ear of corn or stubble of wheat, could be shot or imprisoned for not less than ten years.
Starvation quickly ensued throughout the Ukraine, with the most vulnerable, children and the elderly, first feeling the effects of malnutrition. The once-smiling young faces of children vanished forever amid the constant pain of hunger. It gnawed away at their bellies, which became grossly swollen, while their arms and legs became like sticks as they slowly starved to death.
Mothers in the countryside sometimes tossed their emaciated children onto passing railroad cars traveling toward cities such as Kiev in the hope someone there would take pity. But in the cities, children and adults who had already flocked there from the countryside were dropping dead in the streets, with their bodies carted away in horse-drawn wagons to be dumped in mass graves. Occasionally, people lying on the sidewalk who were thought to be dead, but were actually still alive, were also carted away and buried.
While police and Communist Party officials remained quite well fed, desperate Ukrainians ate leaves off bushes and trees, killed dogs, cats, frogs, mice and birds then cooked them. Others, gone mad with hunger, resorted to cannibalism, with parents sometimes even eating their own children.
Meanwhile, nearby Soviet-controlled granaries were said to be bursting at the seams from huge stocks of 'reserve' grain, which had not yet been shipped out of the Ukraine. In some locations, grain and potatoes were piled in the open, protected by barbed wire and armed GPU guards who shot down anyone attempting to take the food. Farm animals, considered necessary for production, were allowed to be fed, while the people living among them had absolutely nothing to eat.
By the spring of 1933, the height of the famine, an estimated 25,000 persons died every day in the Ukraine. Entire villages were perishing. In Europe, America and Canada, persons of Ukrainian descent and others responded to news reports of the famine by sending in food supplies. But Soviet authorities halted all food shipments at the border. It was the official policy of the Soviet Union to deny the existence of a famine and thus to refuse any outside assistance. Anyone claiming that there was in fact a famine was accused of spreading anti-Soviet propaganda. Inside the Soviet Union, a person could be arrested for even using the word 'famine' or 'hunger' or 'starvation' in a sentence.
The Soviets bolstered their famine denial by duping members of the foreign press and international celebrities through carefully staged photo opportunities in the Soviet Union and the Ukraine. The writer George Bernard Shaw, along with a group of British socialites, visited the Soviet Union and came away with a favorable impression which he disseminated to the world. Former French Premier Edouard Herriot was given a five-day stage-managed tour of the Ukraine, viewing spruced-up streets in Kiev and inspecting a 'model' collective farm. He also came away with a favorable impression and even declared there was indeed no famine.
Back in Moscow, six British engineers working in the Soviet Union were arrested and charged with sabotage, espionage and bribery, and threatened with the death penalty. The sensational show trial that followed was actually a cynical ruse to deflect the attention of foreign journalists from the famine. Journalists were warned they would be shut out of the trial completely if they wrote news stories about the famine. Most of the foreign press corp yielded to the Soviet demand and either didn't cover the famine or wrote stories sympathetic to the official Soviet propaganda line that it didn't exist. Among those was Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Walter Duranty of the New York Times who sent one dispatch stating "...all talk of famine now is ridiculous."
Outside the Soviet Union, governments of the West adopted a passive attitude toward the famine, although most of them had become aware of the true suffering in the Ukraine through confidential diplomatic channels. In November 1933, the United States, under its new president, Franklin D. Roosevelt, even chose to formally recognized Stalin's Communist government and also negotiated a sweeping new trade agreement. The following year, the pattern of denial in the West culminated with the admission of the Soviet Union into the League of Nations.
Stalin's Five Year Plan for the modernization of the Soviet Union depended largely on the purchase of massive amounts of manufactured goods and technology from Western nations. Those nations were unwilling to disrupt lucrative trade agreements with the Soviet Union in order to pursue the matter of the famine.
By the end of 1933, nearly 25 percent of the population of the Ukraine, including three million children, had perished. The Kulaks as a class were destroyed and an entire nation of village farmers had been laid low. With his immediate objectives now achieved, Stalin allowed food distribution to resume inside the Ukraine and the famine subsided. However, political persecutions and further round-ups of 'enemies' continued unchecked in the years following the famine, interrupted only in June 1941 when Nazi troops stormed into the country. Hitler's troops, like all previous invaders, arrived in the Ukraine to rob the breadbasket of Europe and simply replaced one reign of terror with another."
EDIT: Emphasis mine.
quote:
You have no evidence that Iraq is connected with Al Queda or any other terrorist organisation |
I suppose you don't consider paying out US $25 000 to the families of dead Palestinian terrorists links to terrorist organizations? 
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Oh, great. Saddam ordered to kill one of the al-Qa'eda terrorist. You should award him, instead of attacking him. |
Did you even read the article? It says he was executed because he refused to train Al-Quaeda terrorists based in Iraq.
Last edited by GeneralTacticus on 29-08-2002 at 14:24
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:21
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Serb, GeneralTacticus' article is largely correct. It get the relationship between the Revolution and the Ukraine wrong, but the part about the Stalin famine is bang on.
GeneralTacticus, what your article gets wrong about the Ukraine is that it didn't simply declare indpendence and get invaded by the Russians. Following the February Revolution, a Rada was extablished in Kiev. Later that year, the Bolsheviks of the Ukraine set up a Red government in Karkov, then overthrew the Rada and moved to Kiev. While I believe that the Rada had declared independence at one point, up to its overthrow, it was still cooperating with the Soviets of Russia. After a Soviet government had been established, the two countries continued working together.
However, by this time, the Russian Army had completely collapsed. Soviet attempts to declare peace on the Gemans met with failure (D'uh), and the Soviets were forced to accept all German demands. One of these demands was tuning the Ukraine over to Germany.
Germany ousted the Red government and set up it's own government, until the collapse of the Geman Empire in Nov. At this point, the White government of the Ukraine helped to organize a White Army to overthrow the Reds in Moscow. The Ukraine wasn't caught in the middle, it was part and parcel of the struggle.
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
You are using "war over terrorism" crap as an excuse for attack on Iraq. You have no evidence that Iraq is connected with Al Queda or any other terrorist organisation, you have no evidence that Iraq is planing something against US. You just want to conquer it and remove its president. And I'm not defending Stalin, just saying that its the same crap about protection from the threat. In 1939 Stalin beleive that Hitler will use Finland as bridgehead for attacking SU. The Russian-Finnish frontier was only 32 km north of Leningrad. He offered to land exchange to Finland in attempt to remove frontier a bit far from our Northern capital. The proposal was refused and he started the war. You call it agression and expansionism, because there is no way that small Finland could be a threat for SU.(but actually in 1941 Germans moved on Leningrad from Finland as Stalin predicted, but frontier was already moved from 32 to 250 km), but when the most powerfull country of modern World attacking small and devastated Iraq (who is occasionly have one of world's largest stockpiles of oil) you call it self defense, but not an agression or American imperialism.
Not so willingly. Not so long ago Iraq frozen oil export for short period of time. The result was jump of oil's price. You need your lackey, a puppet in Iraq. A puppet who will obey to you 100%. This is the reason. |
Serb, oil is not an issue. We dont even need to get oil from Iraq in the first place. We get all we need from sources around the world. The US is intentionally pulling out of our small dependance (I believe 8% of all our oil is imported from the middle east) on the middle east for oil and moving towards Latin America and Russia. This stooge crap you refer to is rediculous. We have long had all the stooges we need else where  .
Also, you know, even the thought of an attack on Iraq can be completely forgotten if he would only let our weapons inspectors into his country to dismantle his WoMD. He claims he has none, yet refuses UN inspetors to check. Why? Because he has them. Is it unreasonable to just let us check to make sure he is not lying? Ill tell you its not, because in the cease-fire after he got his ass kicked, he agreed to have the weapons inspectors. HE AGREED TO IT. And now he has broken the agreement. And if he does have WoMD, is it unreasonable that we dismantle them? Saddam is bringing any attack that happens upon himself. If he would only live up to the agreement that he made then no attack would even be considered, and Saddam could happily go about his tyrranous reign. Hmmm... does this breaking treaties thing of Saddam sound familiar to anyone else??? *cough* hitler *cough*.
Kman
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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No. I don't deny that Stalin's collectivization was terrible. He was a real crazy bastard. But you portray it like a genocide of Ukranians, like he wanted to kill all Ukranians. For him there was no difference who are you Ukranian, Russian or Uzbeck. If you deny his collectivization- you are an enemy and should be destroyed. If you think that during Stalin's reign was a genocide of Ukranians, then I think that it was genocide of Russians. Because Russians suffered the most from Stalin's atrocities.
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:21
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quote:
A lot of people here use Palistinian flag as avatar in solidarity with Palistine. Do you consider them as terrorists too?
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NO! There is a very big difference between waving a flag and paying out huge sums of money to the families of dead terrorists. This is a huge encouragement to suicide bombers and is the closest you can get to paying them for what they do.
quote:
GeneralTacticus, what your article gets wrong about the Ukraine is that it didn't simply declare indpendence and get invaded by the Russians. Following the February Revolution, a Rada was extablished in Kiev. Later that year, the Bolsheviks of the Ukraine set up a Red government in Karkov, then overthrew the Rada and moved to Kiev. While I believe that the Rada had declared independence at one point, up to its overthrow, it was still cooperating with the Soviets of Russia. After a Soviet government had been established, the two countries continued working together.
However, by this time, the Russian Army had completely collapsed. Soviet attempts to declare peace on the Gemans met with failure (D'uh), and the Soviets were forced to accept all German demands. One of these demands was tuning the Ukraine over to Germany.
Germany ousted the Red government and set up it's own government, until the collapse of the Geman Empire in Nov. At this point, the White government of the Ukraine helped to organize a White Army to overthrow the Reds in Moscow. The Ukraine wasn't caught in the middle, it was part and parcel of the struggle. |
You should note that I did not emphasise any part of the article relating to the Ukraine pre-famine. I was posting that in response to Serb's claims that it was impossible to artificially create a famine.
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It's only one side of the coin. There was also a real famine caused by dry weather. And btw, collectivization and "war vs. Kulaks as class" had happen everywhere in Soviet Union, in Siberia too. |
So I take it you withdraw your assertation that the famine was not deliberate? And I don't think there was anywhere else in the USSR which saw 25 000 people starving every day.
quote:
No. I don't deny that Stalin's collectivization was terrible. He was a real crazy bastard. But you portray it like a genocide of Ukranians, like he wanted to kill all Ukranians. For him there was no difference who are you Ukranian, Russian or Uzbeck. If you deny his collectivization- you are an enemy and should be destroyed. If you think that during Stalin's reign was a genocide of Ukranians, then I think that it was genocide of Russians. Because Russians suffered the most from Stalin's atrocities. |
True in that he didn't really care where you came from. He only cared whether you would obey him unquestioningly or not. However, the forced famine in the Ukraine was most certainly genocide.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramerman
Serb, oil is not an issue. We dont even need to get oil from Iraq in the first place. We get all we need from sources around the world. The US is intentionally pulling out of our small dependance (I believe 8% of all our oil is imported from the middle east) on the middle east for oil and moving towards Latin America and Russia. This stooge crap you refer to is rediculous. We have long had all the stooges we need else where .
Kman |
And the scientists predict that we have only 40 years before we will run out of oil. So, its the major strategic resource of the near future. Who controls the oil, controls the world.
(just play Fallout to see why nuclear war was started )
So, please don't tell me that USA don't care about oil and don't want to see its puppet regimes in countries which have a lot of oil, like Iraq.
quote:
Also, you know, even the thought of an attack on Iraq can be completely forgotten if he would only let our weapons inspectors into his country to dismantle his WoMD. He claims he has none, yet refuses UN inspetors to check. Why? Because he has them. Is it unreasonable to just let us check to make sure he is not lying? Ill tell you its not, because in the cease-fire after he got his ass kicked, he agreed to have the weapons inspectors. HE AGREED TO IT. And now he has broken the agreement. And if he does have WoMD, is it unreasonable that we dismantle them? |
And how many spies was among those inspectors? He claimed that some of those inspectors were CIA agents. And I guess its true. Why he should let in his country people who is spying on him? And btw, just recently he agreed to cooperate with inspectors. UN could send its inspectors again.
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Saddam is bringing any attack that happens upon himself. If he would only live up to the agreement that he made then no attack would even be considered, and Saddam could happily go about his tyrranous reign. |
In other words, if he would started to kiss your ass, you let him to continue his atrocities? Nice, how typical for your foreign policy.
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Hmmm... does this breaking treaties thing of Saddam sound familiar to anyone else??? *cough* hitler *cough*. |
*cough* Bush*cough* *cough* ABM treaty*cough*
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
NO! There is a very big difference between waving a flag and paying out huge sums of money to the families of dead terrorists. This is a huge encouragement to suicide bombers and is the closest you can get to paying them for what they do. |
The same acts of solidarity. I see no difference.
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So I take it you withdraw your assertation that the famine was not deliberate? And I don't think there was anywhere else in the USSR which saw 25 000 people starving every day. |
I don't think that 25 000 people died every day on Ukraine. In that case all of them should be dead very soon. But perhaps you misunderstood me. I don't deny things you described, but also there was natural (not artificial) famine saused by dry weather. Stalin's actions turned already bad sitiation into terrible situation.
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True in that he didn't really care where you came from. He only cared whether you would obey him unquestioningly or not. However, the forced famine in the Ukraine was most certainly genocide. |
Genocide toward political group- "kulaks", not genocide toward Ukrainians as nationality.
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:21
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That's why I think this data is greatly exaggerated. |
Why? It's a lot easier, if slower, to kill people by mass starvation than by execution.
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Not everyone who accepted Stalin's collectivization were party members. In fact people who lived in 'colhozah' (communes, I don't know English word) - which were a goal of Stalin's collectivization weren't party members. Only tiny part of them were communists. |
The relevant paragraph form the article -"While police and Communist Party officials remained quite well fed, desperate Ukrainians ate leaves off bushes and trees, killed dogs, cats, frogs, mice and birds then cooked them. " - does not detail whether those who bowed down to Stalin were spared. I doubt it, though, since their food would have been part of the quotas like everyone else's. And food for them would have been stopped at the border like everyone else's.
EDIT: Most of the population was already living in communes by the time of the famine. Stalin ordered it because they didn't like it.
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I see nothing wrong if someone waving an American flag to celabrate, f.e. their landing on Moon. But it's not the same as if someone start to waving an American flag and shout USA! USA! USA! to celabrate death of thousands of Korean civilians killed by biological weapons. |
I would be sickened if I saw an American celebrating the use of biological weapons against innocent civilians, and Im would probably ask them what the hell they were doing. However, this is passive support, i.e. holding an opinion. Voluntarily funding said biological attacks, on the other hand, is active support and is on the same level as conducting the attack yourself.
Last edited by GeneralTacticus on 29-08-2002 at 16:07
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:21
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quote:
And the scientists predict that we have only 40 years before we will run out of oil. So, its the major strategic resource of the near future. Who controls the oil, controls the world.
(just play Fallout to see why nuclear war was started)
So, please don't tell me that USA don't care about oil and don't want to see its puppet regimes in countries which have a lot of oil, like Iraq.
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We do care about oil, but not nearly enough to stick around in the middle east. This region is by far the leading foreign source of headaches, we dont need that. We got plenty of stuff here at home to give us headaches. It is not worth the pain and suffering our presence there causes.
You dont seem to understand. First of all, the 40 year estimate doesnt take into account the vast untapped underwater reserves, were the majority of the worlds oil still waits. Next, reasons we are pulling our oil interests out of the middle east is just as much political than anything else. Those countries make billions and and billions of dollars from the oil trade. Without that money their nations would be ****. As it is they arent great, and they have some fantastic wealth. By taking are money elsewhere, we are both disassociating ourselves with their culture that is obviously hostile towards ours, and we are taking our money with us.
Also, oil may only perhaps be important for the next 15 - 20 years. American as well as Japanese and European motor companies have been progressing by leaps and bounds on alternative fuel for cars, such as fuel cells which is the primary consumption of fossil fuels. Oil is the past.
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And how many spies was among those inspectors? He claimed that some of those inspectors were CIA agents. And I guess its true. Why he should let in his country people who is spying on him? And btw, just recently he agreed to cooperate with inspectors. UN could send its inspectors again. |
SPYS? WTF. The job of the inspectors was to make sure Saddam had no functioning weapons of mass destruction. This would require some poking around, WHICH SADDAM AGREED TO AFTER SIGNING THE CEASE-FIRE TO THE GULF WAR. After kicking his ass and letting him stay in power, we have every right to search every facet of his country, so that he could never wage war on anybody again. When did he agree to let inspectors back in? I never heard of this, I only heard that he was receptive to the idea. Though this is bullshit, as long as he says this he is just buying time to keep the US off his back. As long as he is 'receptive' to the idea, the world would never tolerate an attack. remember when Japan was receptive to a peace agreement in 1941? It was horse **** meant to buy time. Times change, tactics dont.
WTF do you not get about this? Your arguements are groing more and more irrational. Why dont you just swallow your pride for 5 seconds and agree that Saddam is in the wrong, and if he doesnt comply with the cease-fire that he agreed to, we have every right to attack him just for that. Sometimes I think we should attack him just for being a cruel leader, but that would never be tolerated. The US would be accused of bullying the world and all that ****. It has nothing to do with oil, or any of that other ****, it only has to do with protecting the US and our allies.
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In other words, if he would started to kiss your ass, you let him to continue his atrocities? Nice, how typical for your foreign policy. |
Sheesh, logic at its finest. You just contridicted yourself in this statement.....
this debate should've ended long ago. If he lets us have full access to all his stuff and let us make sure he had no WoMD and let us dismantle what he does have and let us make sure it stays that way (or kiss our ass, in your eyes, though this would only be living up to his agreement), than Saddam can keep his power as long as he can. Who is the United States to go in there and take him out for comitting attrocities? Huh? As it is when we have to go after him for our own self defense people call us 'bullys' or 'cowboys' and crutucize us for being sucgh a cruel and unjust country. They seem not to understand how horrible he is. Can you begin to see my frustration? But does the US have the right to decide other nation's fate, no matter how good it may be? If we went in there for no other reason than because of his attrocities, then what would you think would happen? If you are pissed off at us wanting to take him out for self defence yet if we did it because of his horrible leadership it would be ok???
Please. This debate is just starting to get rediculous.
Kman
And no, I have not been able to locate Fall out. Perhaps you could mail it to me  . I havent really looked very hard though. Not much time. I will though, it sounds like alot of fun.
Last edited by Kramerman on 30-08-2002 at 09:12
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Ghengis-Sean
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Serb is arguing that Iraqi oil is import, and it is, but not to the US. The is the worlds largest producer of oil, we produce roughly half of what we consume, the rest we import from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela, and about 10% from the gulf. The problem is that Europe and Japan import 30% and 70% of their oil from the middle-east. Trouble in the middle-east means higher prices in Europe and Japan and since oil prices don't exist independently of one another it also means higher oil prices in America.
Iraqi oil isn't the main issue here. does anyone remember that pesky little "War on Terrorism"???
The reason we have people from Saudi Arabia trying to fly planes into skyscrpaers is because they aren't happy with the US. One of the key reasons for this is because of the American military presence in Saudia Arabia. Why? Because Mecca happens to be in Saudi Arabia. One of the slogans of Osama bin Laden is "Drive the infedels from the holy places" implying that American forces are actually in the holy places (which they aren't).
Now why are US troops in Saudi Arabia? Because of Saddam Hussein and because Saudi and Kuwaiti oil is important (to Europe and Japan who lack the ability/willingness to protect their own oil supplies). Get rid of Saddam and US troops leave Saudia Arabia and radical muslims lose the ability to say Americans are occupying Islamic holy sites.
sometimes, even in the politcal world 1+1=2.
oh, and Serb, can you say "Croat"? how about "Bosnian"? how about "Albanian"? when the Serbs recognize that the fact that they attempted to exterminate millions of people then you can post your BS, until then pipe down and learn humility. You like to talk about WWII alot, but that happened in our grandparents lifetimes, Kosovo happened just a few years ago. WHAT DID YOU DO TO STOP IT?????
as martin luther king jr. once said, "It isn't the actions of the children of darkness that are so horrible, but the inaction of the children of light.
let ye without sin cast the first stone.
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:21
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quote:
Now why are US troops in Saudi Arabia? Because of Saddam Hussein and because Saudi and Kuwaiti oil is important (to Europe and Japan who lack the ability/willingness to protect their own oil supplies). Get rid of Saddam and US troops leave Saudia Arabia and radical muslims lose the ability to say Americans are occupying Islamic holy sites.
sometimes, even in the politcal world 1+1=2.
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Thats another excellent point, expanding on what i was trying to say as far as the conflict we create while we have a presence in the middle east.
 Ghengis-Sean
quote:
oh, and Serb, can you say "Croat"? how about "Bosnian"? how about "Albanian"? when the Serbs recognize that the fact that they attempted to exterminate millions of people then you can post your BS, until then pipe down and learn humility. You like to talk about WWII alot, but that happened in our grandparents lifetimes, Kosovo happened just a few years ago. WHAT DID YOU DO TO STOP IT????? |
It sounds like, though i may be mis interpreting what you wrote, that you think serb to be serbian. You arent the first to make this mistake . He is actually Russian (siberia). So ths last statement is irrelevant. No matter, it was an honost mistake, unless I be mistaking myself...
Last edited by Kramerman on 30-08-2002 at 09:14
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28-08-2002 09:43
No. 
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