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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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So what?
We didn't leave Afghanistan untill 1989. And when we left it, there was period of peace, when Nagibula created a coalition government. But he still was a president, a president who was a freind of Russkies.
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DanS
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Kickball Capital of the World
Jan 1970
time: 00:21
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No, we didn't care a whit. We closed our Kabul embassy in '90 (edit: in fact, we closed it in '89), and the extent of our involvement in the whole of Afghanistan for a good 10 years (besides a few stray cruise missiles) was to make sure the 4 or 5 Afghan staffmembers of the embassy were paid their salaries.
Last edited by DanS on 23-08-2002 at 10:25
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Bereta_Eder
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actually the taliban were WILLING to give OBL to the americans.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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ObL awarded by Taliban?
Last edited by Serb on 26-08-2002 at 08:31
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
No, we didn't care a whit. We closed our Kabul embassy in '90 (edit: in fact, we closed it in '89), and the extent of our involvement in the whole of Afghanistan for a good 10 years (besides a few stray cruise missiles) was to make sure the 4 or 5 Afghan staffmembers of the embassy were paid their salaries. |
Yes. When Soviet army leave Afghanistan, the Soviet signed a secret deal with USA. The Soviets leave, Americans stop support of Madjaheden, the coalition government (1/3 president's people, 1/3 Madjaheden, 1/3 former king people) should be created. And such government was created and there was a short period of peace.
But I found it's very sususpicion that USA wasn't interested in Afganistan anymore.
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
actually the taliban were WILLING to give OBL to the americans. |
Talibans should be removed regardless.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Such as? |
Just type American war crimes in search engine.
Few examples:
Balkans:
http://grid.ecoinfo.ru/webint_eng/b...cs.htm#CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE AGAINST FRY
Russian propaganda:
http://helicop.chat.ru/eng/eng26.htm
Especialy I love this one: "NATO forces are the pawns of Satan"
Archbishop Christodoulos,
The Leader
of the Greek Orthodox Church
American propaganda about Korean war:
http://www.brianwillson.com/awolgermkor.html
"An early study examined the allegations of the use by the United States of bacteriological and chemical weapons in Korea. The Commission of International Association of Democratic Lawyers' Report on U.S. Crimes in Korea, March 31, 1952, concluded that the U.S. used both germ ("deliberate dispersion of flies and other insects artificially infected with bacteria, with the intention of spreading death and disease") and chemical ("use of poison gas bombs and other chemical substances") warfare against both civilians and combatants in North Korea. "
American propaganda about Vietnam:
http://www.brianwillson.com/awolkerrey.html
"A historically unprecedented level of chemical warfare in the indiscriminate spraying of nearly 20 million gallons on one-seventh the area of South Vietnam. The vestigial effects of chemical warfare poisoning continues to plague the health of adult Vietnamese (and ex-GIs) while causing escalated birth defects. Samples of soil, water, food, and body fat of Vietnamese continues to reveal dangerously elevated levels of dioxin to the present day. "
And so on...
quote:
I have never seen any information on this. Can you provide some? |
I'm too lazy to find a link. But I'm absolutely sure that a lot of scientists who worked with radiactive elements died or were sick because of radiation. And it was at the beggining of 20 century not at 40s.
quote:
And how many people exactly died in that manner after th A-bombing? |
Thousands.
quote:
Now, as I said, this particular argument is not relevant to the discussion. |
Ok.
quote:
OBL would like to. You may think that would suicidal, but you have to ask: is anything that the US can do directly to OBL worse than what it's doing right now? |
Obl is not a country. As long as USA fought with terrorist organisations I'm 100% on its side. But as long USA use "war over terrorism" to justify war for USA national interests, to justify aggrression vs. independant countries who didn't accept "new world order", I'm 100% against USA and such policy.
quote:
Do you think that the USSR you spent 14 years of your life in was even vaguely similar to the Stalinist one? |
Of course not.
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:21
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I wouldn't have been able to tell whose propaganda it was, but it certainly qualifies as such. Lots of grand accusations, no specifics.
The stuff here is pretty disturbing, assuming that it can be relied upon.
quote:
"An early study examined the allegations of the use by the United States of bacteriological and chemical weapons in Korea. The Commission of International Association of Democratic Lawyers' Report on U.S. Crimes in Korea, March 31, 1952, concluded that the U.S. used both germ ("deliberate dispersion of flies and other insects artificially infected with bacteria, with the intention of spreading death and disease") and chemical ("use of poison gas bombs and other chemical substances") warfare against both civilians and combatants in North Korea. " |
They concluded this based on what evidence?
quote:
American propaganda about Vietnam:
http://www.brianwillson.com/awolkerrey.html
"A historically unprecedented level of chemical warfare in the indiscriminate spraying of nearly 20 million gallons on one-seventh the area of South Vietnam. The vestigial effects of chemical warfare poisoning continues to plague the health of adult Vietnamese (and ex-GIs) while causing escalated birth defects. Samples of soil, water, food, and body fat of Vietnamese continues to reveal dangerously elevated levels of dioxin to the present day. "
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That the US committed what would be classified as war crimes in Vietnam is not in dispute (from me at least).
quote:
Obl is not a country. |
Well you did just say 'anyone'.
quote:
As long as USA fought with terrorist organisations I'm 100% on its side. But as long USA use "war over terrorism" to justify war for USA national interests, to justify aggrression vs. independant countries who didn't accept "new world order", I'm 100% against USA and such policy.
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I agree with you, largely. But I do believe that people like Saddam have to go, however the propagandists may decide to justify it.
The Stalinist USSR definitely was something to be worried about. They had the biggest army on the planet by the end of WWII, and they occupied half of Europe, not to mention Manchuria and Korea.
quote:
Yes. When Soviet army leave Afghanistan, the Soviet signed a secret deal with USA. The Soviets leave, Americans stop support of Madjaheden, the coalition government (1/3 president's people, 1/3 Madjaheden, 1/3 former king people) should be created. And such government was created and there was a short period of peace.
But I found it's very sususpicion that USA wasn't interested in Afganistan anymore. |
What interest [i]would[i/] they have in Afghanistan? The only kind of national wealth it seems (or seemed) to have was a huge opium crop. the US doesn't generally throw huge amounts of money and guns at a region unless there's something in it for them.
Last edited by GeneralTacticus on 26-08-2002 at 12:24
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I wouldn't have been able to tell whose propaganda it was, but it certainly qualifies as such. Lots of grand accusations, no specifics. |
Russian propaganda. Every site which ends with .ru is source of Russian propaganda.
quote:
The stuff here is pretty disturbing, assuming that it can be relied upon. |
Upon personal experience and investigation of AMERICAN veteran of Vietnam war.
quote:
They concluded this based on what evidence? |
This article is full of evidence, perhaps you didn't read it well?
Few examples:
"The Unit 406 was always rumored to be the cover for the integration of Ishii's germ warfare program into the U.S. program after the immunity agreement. Unit 406 scientists were already working on hemorrhagic fever in 1951 before Korea's first fatal case of the unusual disease was reported in April 1951. There had been no history of hemorrhagic fever in Korea but it had been confirmed in Manchuria in China, the areas controlled by Japan in the1930s and up to her surrender in August 1945. By the spring of 1952 there was an outbreak of the often fatal fever among U.S. troops. The monthly technical report of Unit 406 for August 1951 stated: "New activities relate to studies of a disease heretofore considered Leptospirosis, but resembling that described by Japanese as Epidemic Hemorrhagic Fever." That part of the report was preceded by noting that "Work of a classified nature, for security reasons, is reported elsewhere." The classified work referred to has never been identified. This report was issued just prior to the September-October 1951 dates of the spraying of the "white powder" in South Cholla Province as described to our delegation in August 2001."
"Established at the September 1951 Berlin Congress of the Association, the Commission consisted of eight lawyers, one each from Austria, Italy, Great Britain, France, China, Belgium, Brazil, and Poland. The Association had been prompted by a Report of the Committee of the Women's International Democratic Federation in Korea, May 16-27, 1951, an international commission of 22 women from18 countries (including Canada and 7 Western European nations) that found systematic war crimes by a number of means were being committed by U.S. forces and South Korean forces under the command of the U.S., though it did not specifically discuss use of bacteriological or chemical weapons.
China convened its own international study, Report of the International Scientific Commission for the Investigation of the Facts Concerning Bacteriological Warfare in Korea and China, issued in Peking in 1952, finding significant use by the U.S. of germ warfare. "
How do you think, if people saw planes spreading wite powder and then epidemy of unknown disease started and killed a lot of them it isn't an evidence?
This article have a lot of such examples. Perhaps you should reread it?
quote:
That the US committed what would be classified as war crimes in Vietnam is not in dispute (from me at least). |
So, you see now, that USA used WoMD as well as Saddam? USA is evil country too.
quote:
Well you did just say 'anyone'. |
My mystake.
quote:
I agree with you, largely. But I do believe that people like Saddam have to go, however the propagandists may decide to justify it. |
Not only him. Personaly I beleive that Clinton, Salana and Co. should be in the same jail as Miloshevich for what they done in Yugoslavia.
quote:
The Stalinist USSR definitely was something to be worried about. They had the biggest army on the planet by the end of WWII, and they occupied half of Europe, not to mention Manchuria and Korea. |
It was also the country which suffered the most during WW2. Millions of people slain, thousands of cities destroyed, burned ground. The new war would last thing the Soviets dreamed about.
quote:
What interest [i]would[i/] they have in Afghanistan? The only kind of national wealth it seems (or seemed) to have was a huge opium crop. the US doesn't generally throw huge amounts of money and guns at a region unless there's something in it for them. |
"VI. The Covert-US Taliban Alliance
Western motives become clearer when one recalls that it was the US that originally trained and armed the faction in Afghanistan - even “long before the USSR sent in troops” - which now constitutes the “leaders of Afghanistan”.[40] The record illustrates the existence of an ongoing relationship between the United States and the Taliban. AI reports that even though the “United States has denied any links with the Taleban”, according to then US Assistant Secretary of State Robin Raphel Afghanistan was a “crucible of strategic interest” during the Cold War, though she denied any US influence or support of factions in Afghanistan today, dismissing any possible ongoing strategic interests. However, former Department of Defense official Elie Krakowski, who worked on the Afghan issue in the 1980s, points out that Afghanistan remains important to this day because it “is the crossroads between what Halford MacKinder called the world’s Heartland and the Indian sub continent. It owes its importance to its location at the confluence of major routes. A boundary between land power and sea power, it is the meeting point between opposing forces larger than itself. Alexander the Great used it as a path to conquest. So did the Moghuls. An object of competition between the British and Russian empires in the 19th century, Afghanistan became a source of controversy between the American and Soviet superpowers in the 20th. With the collapse of the Soviet Union, it has become an important potential opening to the sea for the landlocked new states of Central Asia. The presence of large oil and gas deposits in that area has attracted countries and multinational corporations... Because Afghanistan is a major strategic pivot what happens there affects the rest of the world."
http://insight.com.ru/db/ediamonito...osaddeq2.html#6
But as I said earlier it's just another example of Russian propaganda and of course it don't count as evidence.
 EDIT: I've just read who wrote this article, it's a Brit!!!
"Mr. Nafeez Ahmed is a political analyst and human rights activist based in London. He is Director of the Institute for Policy Research & Development and a Researcher at the Islamic Human Rights Commission. Above article was first published by Online Center for Afghan Studies, January 12, 2001 "
So, it's a British propaganda, not Russian.
Last edited by Serb on 26-08-2002 at 14:43
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:21
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Unfortunately, Saint Marcus, the Northern Alliance had to make alliances and join with local Warlords to have a hope of destroying the Taliban.
It is most likely that the Warlords were responsible for this.
The concept is one of "the lesser of two evils". The Alliance before the Warlords probably had to choose between the Warlords and being slaughtered. You would have made the same choice, I think.
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:21
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quote:
This article is full of evidence, perhaps you didn't read it well?
Few examples:
"The Unit 406 was always rumored to be the cover for the integration of Ishii's germ warfare program into the U.S. program after the immunity agreement. Unit 406 scientists were already working on hemorrhagic fever in 1951 before Korea's first fatal case of the unusual disease was reported in April 1951. There had been no history of hemorrhagic fever in Korea but it had been confirmed in Manchuria in China, the areas controlled by Japan in the1930s and up to her surrender in August 1945. By the spring of 1952 there was an outbreak of the often fatal fever among U.S. troops. The monthly technical report of Unit 406 for August 1951 stated: "New activities relate to studies of a disease heretofore considered Leptospirosis, but resembling that described by Japanese as Epidemic Hemorrhagic Fever." That part of the report was preceded by noting that "Work of a classified nature, for security reasons, is reported elsewhere." The classified work referred to has never been identified. This report was issued just prior to the September-October 1951 dates of the spraying of the "white powder" in South Cholla Province as described to our delegation in August 2001."
"Established at the September 1951 Berlin Congress of the Association, the Commission consisted of eight lawyers, one each from Austria, Italy, Great Britain, France, China, Belgium, Brazil, and Poland. The Association had been prompted by a Report of the Committee of the Women's International Democratic Federation in Korea, May 16-27, 1951, an international commission of 22 women from18 countries (including Canada and 7 Western European nations) that found systematic war crimes by a number of means were being committed by U.S. forces and South Korean forces under the command of the U.S., though it did not specifically discuss use of bacteriological or chemical weapons.
China convened its own international study, Report of the International Scientific Commission for the Investigation of the Facts Concerning Bacteriological Warfare in Korea and China, issued in Peking in 1952, finding significant use by the U.S. of germ warfare. "
How do you think, if people saw planes spreading wite powder and then epidemy of unknown disease started and killed a lot of them it isn't an evidence?
This article have a lot of such examples. Perhaps you should reread it?
|
The only evidence on that list I would be inclined to doubt is the Chinese evidence. The rest is stuff I don't know enough about to comment on.
quote:
Upon personal experience and investigation of AMERICAN veteran of Vietnam war. |
I was referring to the allegations about Korea and the US biowarfare program. The stuff about Vietnam is well known.
quote:
Upon personal experience and investigation of AMERICAN veteran of Vietnam war. |
I don't think Iraq is an evil country, I think Saddam is an evil man. There's a big difference between running a country which used WoMD before you were in power and still being the leader of a country and having ordered the use of WoMD yourself.
quote:
It was also the country which suffered the most during WW2. Millions of people slain, thousands of cities destroyed, burned ground. The new war would last thing the Soviets dreamed about. |
Then why risk it so much with Berlin and Korea?
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I was referring to the allegations about Korea and the US biowarfare program. The stuff about Vietnam is well known. |
This American veteran among with other US military veterans was in Korea in 2001. And he describe what facts this delegation has revealed and his feelings and impressions. He is an American, the American soldier, so if someone think that this is propaganda, and Americans can't trust him, then I don't know WHOSE words are not propagada.
quote:
I don't think Iraq is an evil country, I think Saddam is an evil man. There's a big difference between running a country which used WoMD before you were in power and still being the leader of a country and having ordered the use of WoMD yourself. |
Yes, it make sence, but it's all because so-called American democracy. It's very comfortable system. Four years passed and they have a new president. "Hey people look, Clinton is retired (butcher of Balkans), so we have a new president, while your Saddam still in charge. We gonna bomb your country for that."
quote:
Then why risk it so much with Berlin and Korea? |
I don't want to turn it to another "Who started Cold war" disscusion. (But sure it wasn't Soviets :evilgrin
Last edited by Serb on 27-08-2002 at 13:25
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:21
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quote:
if someone think that this is propaganda, and Americans can't trust him, then I don't know WHOSE words are not propagada. |
Thats exactly, right, you cant trust anybody's words at face value. No telling how biased they are when reporting info, how bad the information they got was, or how bad it was when their source's source's source originally got it (or made it up).
There are Americans who say we never went to the moon. There are Americans who openly criticize the government at every waking moment. Though I think this is good, because it keeps the US on its toes, it does not mean that they are right, though it doesnt neccessarily mean they are wrong. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, no matter how ludicrous or false. Lots of people say lots of things, regardless of nationality, but that is especially the case in the US. I dunno if foreigners think we all think the same, but rarely is there a major foreign policy change or domestic laws passed that are fully supported by more than 60% of the population. Many a time the vast majority of the population of the US is against something, yet the government continues, such as in Veitnam's later days.
My point is, like about that scientist who you mentioned long ago who claimed he knew all the geopolitical aspects of the atomic bomb, is that just because one person says something, that means little more than ****, no matterwhat the nationality. If a Russian were to stand up and say Russia sucks balls, I doubt you will take him very seriously, even if it was a former high government officila. However, if many, many people with such credibilty were to begin saying this (which they wont, this is just hypothetical, we all know that Russia DOES suck balls...  J/K), then one might take it more seriously. Though, this man may be right. You just gotta be careful. Especially you, serb, who seems to jump at all info that makes the US look bad
Kman
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramerman
I want serb to know that I dont really care whether hes evil or not. I mean, who am I to decide who is evil/what is evil? I cannot, like no one can decide that I am evil, because it is relative. Saddam needs to be destroyed not because I think hes evil or whatever, but because he is a potentially deadly threat to the US. This has been argued over and over throughout this thread before and others too. Yet you keep switching the arguement to something else that is irrelevant. Saddam Husein is a threat to the US, I dont care what you say but that is a fact.
Kman |
Fact? How Hussein is threaten to USA? Did he killed a single US citizen? This concept- "let's destroy them now, untill he attacked us" could justify any agression. In 1939 Stalin attacked Finland, because he beleive that Finland is deadly threat to SU. And this consider as aggression vs. independant country. Today you want to do exactly the same and saying that it's Ok for USA to act in the same manner and that this is not an aggression, but just a self-deffense. It's hypocricity.
Just a beggining. The real story will start when you'll launch war.
quote:
Chechenya was a threat to the security of Russia, what did you do? Exactly... |
First of all it isn't an independant country. It's part of Russian Federation. International laws can't be implemented in this case, only laws of Russian Federation. It's our internal affair. But, untill recently you constantly preassured on us because of Chechnya.
Second, It was a real threat to our security, not mythical. They destroyed several department buildings in Russian cities including our capital and killed hundreds of peacefully sleeping civilians, including children of course, they stole thousands of our citizens and used them as slaves, they stole thousands of our citizens and foreign citizens for kidnaping, they took our citizens to hostages, including pregent wemens and children, they made a lot of terrorist acts, exploded a lot of bombs on markets, squres, undeground passages etc. and killed a lot of people, they established fundamental Vahhabite state, absolutely the same as Afghanistan under Taliban for 3 years Chechnya was place of chaos and misery, and finally, they invaded Dagestan- they ATTACKED US, we have no choice but to defend ourselves. If Saddam commited a single such crime vs. USA, if f.e. he ordered to destroy a single American department building, I was on your side 100%, because everyone have right to defend. But he didn't threat to lives of your citizens, he threat to your interests in region. It's absolutely different things.
Before you'll say that he COULD threat in future, I'll answer- how could you know this? After WW2, humanity created United Nations to prevent horrors of WW2 in future. The USA during last years violate UN chapter to often. It's very dangerous, it seems that you forget about tragical mistakes of the past. Why you just can't act in accordance with international law? Don't you understand that your unilateral actions could lead to international isolation of USA someday? Because more and more people feel sick about American foreign policy of unilateral actions.
Why you can't understand this?
quote from Terminator 2:
John Connor: You can't kill people.
The Terminator: Why?
JQ: What do you mean "Why"? You just can't.
T-800: Why?
JQ: Because it's wrong.
T-800: Why?
...
(btw, did you found Fallout?: )
Last edited by Serb on 27-08-2002 at 09:11
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Kramerman
Thats exactly, right, you cant trust anybody's words at face value. No telling how biased they are when reporting info, how bad the information they got was, or how bad it was when their source's source's source originally got it (or made it up).
Kman |
Sure you can't completely trust to evidence accured throught internet. To convince you in something I should show to you a real document, or bring alive witness. I can't do this. So, no matter what I say, you can alway say that this is just a propaganda and those evidence were fixed.
quote:
There are Americans who say we never went to the moon. |
Sure you weren't. No one was. It's just a Hollywood propaganda.
quote:
If a Russian were to stand up and say Russia sucks balls, I doubt you will take him very seriously, even if it was a former high government officila. |
Of course not. And Of course we have a lot of whining jerks, who whine "Russia is sucked here, Russia is sucked there, Russia is sucked, Russia is suck's". They are just stuipid jerks or your spies. No one took them seriously.
quote:
However, if many, many people with such credibilty were to begin saying this (which they wont, this is just hypothetical, we all know that Russia DOES suck balls... J/K), then one might take it more seriously. Though, this man may be right. |
I'm hear this on Apolyton all the time, and I'm always ready to say something in retaliation.
quote:
You just gotta be careful. Especially you, serb, who seems to jump at all info that makes the US look bad |
It's my little hobby.
There is nothing I can do about this, I guess it's a legacy of Cold war.
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23-08-2002 09:28
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