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DarkCloud
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of Lists
Jul 2000
time: 05:21
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Yes, I received a 0,0  But only because I agree on all republican issues, but cede all minor issues to democrats
I also hold the most radical Fascist and Communist views on this forum I think
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About the Fez/Spartak Capitalist/Communist debate here. Did no one notice DinoDoc's comments on page 9?
quote:
I thought that it had to do with rampant overspending on the bloated welfare state along wages along with state corruption.
But of course I'm wrong and Argentina had absolutely nothing to do with digging its own grave. It was the evil IMFs fault.
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Which I think were the only words of sense sprouted on that page (assuming they are correct)
But no one on either side picked up on them.
For Fez- why- would you rather make this a personal issue rather than a political one?
For The Communists- Do you not have an answer?
I have to say that I am disgusted with the way the argument went (having only read 3 pages of it, was too disgusted to read the earlier pages)
(However, I am glad to say that at least Fez was better on page 10 and, though the argument disappeared [and stayed personal for the most part [the people became 'nicer'] I would like to see it resolved and
I think If DinoDoc's line of thought was followed, then more could have been resolved.
Odin-
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he is giving in the logging companies and using wildfires as an excuse, typical of the republicans |
But you must agree, fires can be stopped if the brush is cleared. Thus, Bush's proposal makes sense after a fashion.
Destryoing some with logging and MAKING USE OF THEM is better than letting all that wood burn.
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alofatti
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To Kublai-Khan:
I think that there is no point in trying to argue with Fez. It is like speaking to a rock! He denies even the hard evidences (FACTS!) about everything that does not suit well for him.
To Fez:
About the story of the devaluation: you are absolutely wrong, it is a FACT, it is in all kind of media, it was made public by all the media and the IMF does not even deny it!!! Trying to deny this is futile.
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alofatti
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My excuses, DD, are you referring to me?
If that is the case, I apologize and I would like to ask you if you could mark me where did you comment something that needed an answer from me (I might have jumped it).
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alofatti
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I will not repeat all the arguments here because I have already did in some other posts in this thread.
I will resume it here: the local government is quite responsible of the disaster, but I do still held as partial responsibles of this the IMF.
That welfare state that you are talking about was finished long time ago. It started in 1976, with the militare coup, which started a process of ultraliberalization of the economy with catastrophics effects in the local industry. The 90s with the Menemist government (with Domingo Felipe Cavallo as Economy Minister most of the time) finished all that. Argentina was considered by the "establishment", as the perfect example of a neoliberal country.
The overbloated spending was caused mostly because of the interests of the external deb, but the real cause of the deficit was, in the views of some important econimics (including Joseph Stiglitz), the privatization of the social security system, imposed by the IMF inside its package of privatizations. He also said that if USA would privatize it, it would have a fiscal deficit comparable to the 8 % of the GDP, more than double of the Argentinian deficit in relation with GDP.
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:21
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quote:
Originally posted by alofatti
I will not repeat all the arguments here because I have already did in some other posts in this thread.
I will resume it here: the local government is quite responsible of the disaster, but I do still held as partial responsibles of this the IMF. |
The federal government is responsible for the disaster as well as the local government. I put no responsibilities on the IMF as they gave this country a chance at building itself up and it squandered the money.
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That welfare state that you are talking about was finished long time ago. It started in 1976, with the militare coup, which started a process of ultraliberalization of the economy with catastrophics effects in the local industry. |
Wrong. The economy was mostly state owned during the military junta, that was why it had to be privatized in the 90s.
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The 90s with the Menemist government (with Domingo Felipe Cavallo as Economy Minister most of the time) finished all that. Argentina was considered by the "establishment", as the perfect example of a neoliberal country. |
Actually it was not, it had rampant corruption and reeks with marcomismanagement.
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The overbloated spending was caused mostly because of the interests of the external deb, but the real cause of the deficit was, in the views of some important econimics (including Joseph Stiglitz), the privatization of the social security system, |
Well that is incorrect. The deficit was clearly caused by excessive borrowings by the Menem government in its second term.
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imposed by the IMF inside its package of privatizations. He also said that if USA would privatize it, it would have a fiscal deficit comparable to the 8 % of the GDP, more than double of the Argentinian deficit in relation with GDP. |
The Japanese economy has a deficit of about approximately several trillion however it has remained resillent even when confronted with crisis this decade... it still is managing to hold on. The Argentine economy is unproductive and relatively inadequate leading to an economic downturn.
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Fez, do you live in a bubble?
For a month, A MONTH, our currency was pegged to the dolar at 1.40.
Where were you in the summer?
Dont you remember this? |
How long did that last? Two weeks.
Suck it up, your country's government is a joke.
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alofatti
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From Fez: "Actually it was not, it had rampant corruption and reeks with marcomismanagement. "
I was not stating an opinion over there, I am just stating what were the words from the so called "establishmend", lead by the IMF.
"The Japanese economy has a deficit of about approximately several trillion however it has remained resillent even when confronted with crisis this decade... it still is managing to hold on. The Argentine economy is unproductive and relatively inadequate leading to an economic downturn. "
I donīt get it, do we have to have deficit or not? Make your point!
"How long did that last? Two weeks. "
Maybe three, I donīt remember exactly. The peg was banished near the beginninf of febraury, when the IMF demandes a "sustentable plan" and to FREE THE DOLLAR SO IT WILL STABILIZE IN THE MARKET VALUE.
The IMF does not deny it and they are even proud of it!!
Look, this is the last time I am going to explain this, for christ sake.
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alofatti
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"Oftentimes I don't agree with the IMF, like sometimes I don't agree with Alan Greenspan. "
Finally, I get this from you!! You are not THAT irrational after all. Couldnīt you just state it at once so we could get this through??
"The Argentine Government has and always was corrupt since the return of civilian rule in 1983"
I hope that you are not implying that the military junta was not corrupt...
"$140 Billion dollars you nimwit. "
No, thatīs not deficit. That is external debt. We donīt have to pay each year 140 billion dollars.
And you didnīt answer my question.
And please, donīt insult me.
"And let it stablized... it looks like 3.5 or 3.6 now... that is about stablized. Now what you need to do is follow the Ecuadorian Economic Miracle. Adopt the US Dollar."
So, after all, you admit about what happened with the devaluation?
I donīt think implanting the dollarization in this country is a good idea. That kind of think is good in countries with an economy based primarily in the exportations for US dollars which is not the case here. The level of exports is very low as to justify that measure.
And, besides, that would leave the country without the ability to impose monetary policies.
Aside from what happened here, which could be argued for a long time, the devaluation is a monetary tool which can be useful so as to weaken the coin and make the country more competitive.
"By adopting the US Dollar they turned the economy around in two years."
I really have my doubts from that WWW site you mention there (it looks like a government site). Actually, it is now very doubtful that the ecuatorians did it right with the dollar... But those are just rumours I have heard and I donīt have a good enough base to argue here...
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alofatti
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"You on the otherhand are always irrational because you support violating the laws of economics. "
What laws of economics are you talking about? If you are talking about it in a general way (i.e., the law of offer and demand, of diminishing return, etc) then you are wrong, I have not cuestioned them. I did not violate any law, I am doubtful of some kind of practices and economic policies, which is a different concept.
"When it came to power yes... "
well, another thing we have in common.
"External Debt is what I meant... and the deficit is mountainpile. Your government can't afford to pay anything anymore. "
Again, this doesnīt answer. Are you against deficit in all circumstances? Your japanesse example seems to deny this.
And actually, now we are having superavit. It is time to start doing something about those 53 % who are under the line of poverty...
"I never denied anything. Accept saying the Duhalde adminstration itself screwed up."
Thatīs not truth, you denied it all the time.
"Read the facts it is."
You are oversimplyfing the working of an economic system. There are no general (and often "magical") recipes that work everywhere.
"Therefore your economy must rot until it is completely dead. "
This is not a rebate for the argument posted above!
"The Ecuadorians did do it right and you shouldn't have doubts about the organization that WWW site is. They state the facts."
May I be suspicious about it? I think I may have good reasons for it... The dollarization idea is something that is not popular anywhere, including the left and the right (except for Carlos Saul Menen). Even the IMF thinks that is a bad idea. I have already stated some of the reasons.
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Giancarlo
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Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:21
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quote:
Originally posted by alofatti
What laws of economics are you talking about? If you are talking about it in a general way (i.e., the law of offer and demand, of diminishing return, etc) then you are wrong, I have not cuestioned them. I did not violate any law, I am doubtful of some kind of practices and economic policies, which is a different concept. |
Your views do violate those laws. And don't try to use big terms you know nothing about.
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Again, this doesnīt answer. Are you against deficit in all circumstances? Your japanesse example seems to deny this.
And actually, now we are having superavit. It is time to start doing something about those 53 % who are under the line of poverty... |
Ask and answered. Your country is completely ruined, there is nothing you can do besides letting it bottom out and that will be painful.
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Thatīs not truth, you denied it all the time. |
WHAT THE ****? I hate Duhalde. I think he is corrupt. That is the truth, he screwed up.
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You are oversimplyfing the working of an economic system. There are no general (and often "magical") recipes that work everywhere. |
The Ecuadorian and Chilean Economic miracles are simple but had to happen quickly.
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May I be suspicious about it? I think I may have good reasons for it... The dollarization idea is something that is not popular anywhere, including the left and the right (except for Carlos Saul Menen). Even the IMF thinks that is a bad idea. I have already stated some of the reasons. |
That is because Argentina is bankrupt, I just realize it does not have the oil revenues Ecuador has for such a change. Your country is broke and far from any recovery.
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alofatti
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"WHAT THE ****? I hate Duhalde. I think he is corrupt. That is the truth, he screwed up. "
No, no. I wasnīt referring to Duhalde, I was talking about how the devaluation was handled.
"Ask and answered. Your country is completely ruined, there is nothing you can do besides letting it bottom out and that will be painful. "
That is all you can argue about? I donīt know how many times have you used this as an answer for different questions.
"The Ecuadorian and Chilean Economic miracles are simple but had to happen quickly. "
You seem to believe in those famous "magical" recipes. I donīt.
"That is because Argentina is bankrupt, I just realize it does not have the oil revenues Ecuador has for such a change. Your country is broke and far from any recovery."
And do you know why, because the oil company was PRIVATIZED !!
And again, you resort to the same thing as an answer: "your country is broke", "your country is a piece of ****", etc.
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alofatti
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"Because I don't know what I am responding to here... you make no sense... like your politicans... "
Could you at least told me so? I donīt have a problem in explaining anything that was ambiguous, but using that kind of escapist answer for it is not a good idea, it is an easy way of evading to talk about anything.
This is not productive. We are going in circles around the same concepts all the time and I find this somewhat tiring and frustrating.
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27-08-2002 05:41
Always glad to find kindred moderate spirits 
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