25-08-2002 18:31									#211
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quote: Originally posted by alofatti You donīt know a THING of what is happening in Argentina. So, WE have punished the private sector, right?? There is a limit of bullshit that I am willing to support but this does it!

Oh really I don't? Then me living there seeing what happens every single day makes me not knowing of the situation? Get a ****ing clue.

Oh and you are a DL... I just got to figure of whom...

quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak I agree with Spartak, u lost Fez... And Im so fed up to meet some evil greedy capitalist pigs who havent read Chomsky and think Smith's theories have been applied...

Capitalist Pigs? Give me a break... at least we don't rob from the people. And at least we believe in private property and not some collective bullshit.

	25-08-2002 18:41									#212
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To loinburger :
Come on, you dont expect me to understand and think about the whole Hobbes in a couple of days, do you ? Let me more time, thanx

To Fez :
Do you realize that your private property involves about 36,000 deaths everyday, just because of starving ? Oh, and Fez, by the way, since you're spanish, go read some Semprun as well ( lol he wrote mainly in french lol ), and you'll know that being communist is not about robbin but about sharing.

	25-08-2002 18:44									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak To Fez : Do you realize that your private property involves about 36,000 deaths everyday, just because of starving ?

Arbitrary information applied the wrong way... not the first time I seen that happened.

quote: Oh, and Fez, by the way, since you're spanish, go read some Semprun as well ( lol he wrote mainly in french lol ), and you'll know that being communist is not about robbin but about sharing.

I suggest you read One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich by Solzhenitsyn. It explains the horrible nature of gulags in the Soviet Union and how screwed up your philosophy is.

	25-08-2002 19:01									#214
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quote: Originally posted by alofatti Quoted from Fez: You know? Recent analyst are starting to think that Argentine crisis surged because the government interfered too little...

I thought that it had to do with rampant overspending on the bloated welfare state along wages along with state corruption.

But of course I'm wrong and Argentina had absolutely nothing to do with digging its own grave. It was the evil IMFs fault.

	25-08-2002 19:05									#215
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Pande: Have you read Hobbes yet, you crazy anarchist?

Are you trying to get him to understand the concept of the "warre of all against all"?

	25-08-2002 21:48									#216
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Quoted from Fez:
"Oh really I don't? Then me living there seeing what happens every single day makes me not knowing of the situation? Get a ****ing clue. "

Do you really live in Argentina? If that is the case, where do you get your sources? Infobae? Daniel Hadad?

	25-08-2002 23:33									#217
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Are you trying to get him to understand the concept of the "warre of all against all"?

Damn straight. Anarchy's equivalent to total war.

	26-08-2002 01:34									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Arbitrary information applied the wrong way... not the first time I seen that happened. I suggest you read One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich by Solzhenitsyn. It explains the horrible nature of gulags in the Soviet Union and how screwed up your philosophy is.

You really are a total fool aren't you Fez?

	26-08-2002 01:47									#219
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Quoted from Spartak:
"You really are a total fool aren't you Fez?"

I think everyone finally have to arrive to that inevitable conclusion...

	26-08-2002 02:30									#220
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quote: Originally posted by alofatti Quoted from Fez: "Oh really I don't? Then me living there seeing what happens every single day makes me not knowing of the situation? Get a ****ing clue. " Do you really live in Argentina? If that is the case, where do you get your sources? Infobae? Daniel Hadad?

I live in Buenos Aires you nim wit. Alofatti what the **** do you know? After all you demostrated your zero knowledge for economics... you proved nothing except being a complete fool like Spartak.

	26-08-2002 02:44									#221
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I donīt think I deserve that kind of rant.

	26-08-2002 02:46									#222
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Damn straight. Anarchy's equivalent to total war.

Not necessarily. Lack of a state doesn't mean no government.

	26-08-2002 02:50									#223
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Fez: May I ask you why are you living here in Bs. As. ? I am asking out of really curiosity.
Some of your parents work here?
You are making a college study in these lands?
You are just curious because of the crisis?
You are stranded in the country with no money to return to Spain?
You are in a long vacation?

	26-08-2002 02:52									#224
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His daddy works for our government, helping to screw your country. He's with the American embassy.

	26-08-2002 03:02									#225
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quote: Originally posted by alofatti Fez: May I ask you why are you living here in Bs. As. ? I am asking out of really curiosity.

I am the son of a diplomat representing the United States Government. But I was born in Spain, my mother is Spanish and my dad (the diplomat) is Italian. He climbed through the ranks of the US government through hard-work.

quote: Some of your parents work here?

US Embassy related.

quote: You are making a college study in these lands?

No I am not. But I think if I was given control for two years of this country I would turn the economic situation around completely and set the stage for massive economic expansion.

quote: You are just curious because of the crisis?

I am curious to hear about diferent crisis in the different countries. I have been to many other countries with even worse economic conditions. My uncle is the director of one organization that helps ties between two groups in Burundi and in that region.

quote: You are in a long vacation?

I go to school in a private school.

Che:

quote: His daddy works for our government, helping to screw your country. He's with the American embassy.

You are pathetic. The United States government has done nothing to hurt Argentina. Only Argentina ****ed it up royally and own't accept responsiblity. I would like for somebody to raise their hands and say: Yes I did it. I ****ed up. Blame me. And then get on with their lives. Your pathetic anti-capitalist rant will do you know good in the real world so grow up.

	26-08-2002 03:04									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I live in Buenos Aires you nim wit. Alofatti what the **** do you know? After all you demostrated your zero knowledge for economics... you proved nothing except being a complete fool like Spartak.

I do like to see an elegant, well argued, compelling civilized point well made.

Looks like Fez has some way to go to reach that level.

Fez may i point out that this is not a school playground and the posters here are neither stupid nor cowed by brutish and borish insults? If you want to be taken seriously, you need to show a little maturity and intellect and a little less of the ignorant bullying streak you have displayed in this thread. I have to say that most of the Kids of US diplomats I have seen have been well bahaved and polite. Looks like there is always one runt in every litter.

	26-08-2002 03:07									#227
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Spartak: I am angry. Yes that is apparent. I am angry because people in this country won't take responsbility for their screw ups. They blame the IMF. They have to blame others. They can't blame themselves because it is out of their own ignorance. For once, I would like to see somebody in this country shut up with their false rhetoric and say: "Yes, we are the ones that put this country in the gutter." But I will never see that... and I will see that those same despicable fools will blame the IMF and somebody else for their own **** ups.

	26-08-2002 03:19									#228
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Fez - why don't you settle down a bit and listen to what I have been posting. Try and be calm and relax. Its fine to be pasionate about something and its good to have opinions but the point I am trying to make is that you need to learn to find a more constructive level in your debates. Get angry by all means but you won';t ever persuade anyone is your response to disagreement is to cus like a navvy. Rebut the argument and make the other side defend their argument but respect their opinions and keep it civil. If you do that not only will the other posters here respect you but you may find yourself winning the odd argument and having fun doing it as well, instead of winding yourself up over it.

Bear in mind that I am definately twice your age and have considerably more life experiance than you. My job involves my, on occasions having to be really beastly to people who are right in front of me and who protest quite violently when they don't like my decisions. Now - I'm not really bothered by your antics and that's why our discussion has lasted more than two posts. You HAVE to learn to be more mellow if you want to have any fun here. Otherwise you are just going to feed your anger and will learn nothing.

That's a ittle helpful and well meaning free advice. Instead of having another go at me, why don't you have a careful read and rethink your approach to debate.

Trust me it works....

	26-08-2002 03:21									#229
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Left/right -6.12

Authoritarian/Libertarian -2.13

That's my score. I was surprised by my highly Communist stance.

	26-08-2002 03:22									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Spartak Fez - why don't you settle down a bit and listen to what I have been posting. Try and be calm and relax. Its fine to be pasionate about something and its good to have opinions but the point I am trying to make is that you need to learn to find a more constructive level in your debates. Get angry by all means but you won';t ever persuade anyone is your response to disagreement is to cus like a navvy. Rebut the argument and make the other side defend their argument but respect their opinions and keep it civil. If you do that not only will the other posters here respect you but you may find yourself winning the odd argument and having fun doing it as well, instead of winding yourself up over it. Bear in mind that I am definately twice your age and have considerably more life experiance than you. My job involves my, on occasions having to be really beastly to people who are right in front of me and who protest quite violently when they don't like my decisions. Now - I'm not really bothered by your antics and that's why our discussion has lasted more than two posts. You HAVE to learn to be more mellow if you want to have any fun here. Otherwise you are just going to feed your anger and will learn nothing. That's a ittle helpful and well meaning free advice. Instead of having another go at me, why don't you have a careful read and rethink your approach to debate. Trust me it works....

I am just curious why people criticize my age... so when was a teenager not capable of making up their own mind?

And also another thing... why won't people take responsibility for their own screw ups? For the last time... I seen constant evading of the facts here... I have seen a lot ignorance... and I haven't seen any responsibility.

	26-08-2002 03:23									#231
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Fez, I asked you a series of question and you answered them like a gentleman, really, and I appreciate that. You know, you must forget my curiosity but for me it is quite amusing to know what they think of us the foreigners, and you since you live here you seem to have a first sight view of the situation.
I wonīt ask you to what school are you attending because that is something private, but if you donīt mind telling me:
What does you companions think about the situation, foreigners and national students alike?
Do you watch the local TV, listen the radio, read the news? What do you think of them?
What do you think of the actual government?
Does your parents/family share your view?

Thanks in advance.

	26-08-2002 03:30									#232
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May I tell you about my past? My mother's side is a working class family. In the past my country, Spain, has suffered chronic unemployment... much higher than what is in Argentina... we only took responsiblity because we saw it as the option. We grabbed hold of the problems and solved them. Now our economy is powerful.

quote: What does you companions think about the situation, foreigners and national students alike?

I have never really gotten their opinion on this matter... I have many friends from this country who say their country should take responsiblity for its fatal errors. So maybe that is the way it is.

quote: Do you watch the local TV, listen the radio, read the news? What do you think of them?

Buenos Aires Herald (Horrible), and the Financial Journal (Spanish) are the two main newspapers I read. The Financial Journal is probably the most unbiased newspaper in the country and the Buenos Aires Herald is probably the worst.

quote: What do you think of the actual government?

Dirt corrupt. I think Duhalde should be arrested and tried in court for corruption, dubious financial transactions and graft.

quote: Does your parents/family share your view?

My dad does... the rest of family says it is sad how such a rich and a potentially powerful country ruined itself.

	26-08-2002 03:31									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I am just curious why people criticize my age... so when was a teenager not capable of making up their own mind? And also another thing... why won't people take responsibility for their own screw ups? For the last time... I seen constant evading of the facts here... I have seen a lot ignorance... and I haven't seen any responsibility.

I'm not criticising your age. I'm trying to show you that its inevitable at your age that you will not have the same knowledge and ability to debate as someone older. I have been trying through this whole thread to try and steer you to a more constructive debating method for your own good.

As for responsibility - am I right that you are referring to the situation in Argentina? You know there are very few examples of economies opening up without widespread social disruption and major restructuring problems. The only two or three I can think off would perhaps be Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary, and the Czech Republic couldn't do it without ejecting Slovakia. Its not easy restructing an entire economy and sometimes outside forces just make it impossible to do it. Maybe less blame and more understanding would help sometimes.

	26-08-2002 03:38									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Spartak I'm not criticising your age. I'm trying to show you that its inevitable at your age that you will not have the same knowledge and ability to debate as someone older. I have been trying through this whole thread to try and steer you to a more constructive debating method for your own good.

That is 100% completely false. Being older doesn't mean anything. We all possess different types of knowledge (from different areas).

quote: As for responsibility - am I right that you are referring to the situation in Argentina? You know there are very few examples of economies opening up without widespread social disruption and major restructuring problems.

No this country is finished with. It never opened up... and the difference between this country and other's is that it has a $140 billion dollar external debt.

quote: The only two or three I can think off would perhaps be Poland, Czech Republic and Hungary, and the Czech Republic couldn't do it without ejecting Slovakia. Its not easy restructing an entire economy and sometimes outside forces just make it impossible to do it. Maybe less blame and more understanding would help sometimes.

Argentina was one of the richest countries in the world in the beginning of the 20th century. Its GDP was larger than Britains. Its economy remained open... until it gradually declined because of chronic corruption.

And you ignoring everything. This country is not accepting responsibility for the ill-advised privatizations (which should of been done very carefully), poorly executed devaluation (which should of been done by only 10-20% in small amounts by time... like 1.25 pesos to 1 US Dollar, then slowly set at 1.5 pesos to 1 US dollar. This country must also take responsibility for the chronic problem of corruption.

	26-08-2002 03:39									#235
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We do have some kind of an agreement about Duhalde, at least.
What do you think of Carlos Saul Menem?
You must surely be aware of the upcoming elections, do you favor one candidate over another?
Do you like the country and the city?
How long have you been living here?

	26-08-2002 03:40									#236
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Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Authoritarian/Libertarian: -1.90

I'm close to Gandhi's position.

Edit: Pandemoniak, now don't you dare continue calling me a capitalist pig!

	26-08-2002 03:41									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Old DLs never die... they just fade away... until one day... Okay maybe I was mistakened... but I have never seen you before... you criticize my age and what-not... you put me on an inferior level just because I am a teenager... then you make arbitrary assumptions. That is the formula for screwing up..

I'll bring this here if you don't mind - it saves threadjacking the other thread.

I really must make this clear neither your age or your being a teenager make you inferior. Your debating style is often very aggressive, rude and not very mature. Ergo, you bring yourself down to a lower level than you probably deserve.

My objective in this thread was to bring you up short because I honestly don't think you have been doing yourself any favours up to now. Your most recent posts have been much more constructive and I must say that my estimation of you has risen accordingly. I hope you have found the discussion more entertaining as well.

Oh, and I'm not a DL. I post at Counterglow mostly and don't tend to post in OT much here. Do a search - most of the time here I spend being a pest. I have no idea what makes me so serious in this thread but I hope there is some benefit from the effort - its quite tiring...

	26-08-2002 03:41									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Ha... I like to see that... you ruin people's lives and send them into poverty. You have no plans for the economy because you don't know how to work one. Oh equality this... equality that... give me a break. At least I have plans and at least there is common sense in what I say. Odin, I am republican if you put me on the US scale so I don't appreciate your unfounded bashing. All commies must die because they like ruining people's lives.

I'm not comunist, I'm a SOCIALIST! Commies are athoratarian. Socialists are Libertarian.

	26-08-2002 03:43									#239
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Quote from Fez:
"And you ignoring everything. This country is not accepting responsibility for the ill-advised privatizations (which should of been done very carefully), poorly executed devaluation (which should of been done by only 10-20% in small amounts by time... like 1.25 pesos to 1 US Dollar, then slowly set at 1.5 pesos to 1 US dollar. This country must also take responsibility for the chronic problem of corruption."

Actually, both of these where conditions imposed by the IMF...
But anyway, I donīt want to antagonize with you.

	26-08-2002 03:45									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Fez That is 100% completely false. Being older doesn't mean anything. We all possess different types of knowledge (from different areas). No this country is finished with. It never opened up... and the difference between this country and other's is that it has a $140 billion dollar external debt. Argentina was one of the richest countries in the world in the beginning of the 20th century. Its GDP was larger than Britains. Its economy remained open... until it gradually declined because of chronic corruption. And you ignoring everything. This country is not accepting responsibility for the ill-advised privatizations (which should of been done very carefully), poorly executed devaluation (which should of been done by only 10-20% in small amounts by time... like 1.25 pesos to 1 US Dollar, then slowly set at 1.5 pesos to 1 US dollar. This country must also take responsibility for the chronic problem of corruption.

Hey Fez - that's a really good argument and I'm actually listening because you let your argument do the talking rather than getting cross and losing your rag. I genuinely mean this in an unpatronising way because I know I wind you up - but well done and I accept your point as being more valid as mine. (Do you see the benefit of a more constructive approach now?)