26-08-2002 21:23									#61
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Don't go blaming the ROP. Fact is they wouldn't have declared war unless someone paid.

Pillaging isn't disasterous. Our long jobs have been clearing jungle, and they can't undo that. We have an adept envirodustruction force that can easily undo anything they pillage.

Do rivers really offer a defensive bonus when being attacked from it? That's silly!
River gambit (works every time):
At night, send over roughly half the army, maybe a little less, and make it look like it is the whole thing. When they notice, let about half of them fall and the other half retreat across the river (river crossings are very slow). They will send their entire army thinking that is the last of yours, and then ambush them with 75% of your army upon reaching the other side. It works every time because none of the people who experience it happening to them survive to spot it later.

	26-08-2002 21:47									#62
	Decision Increase the size of your Attachments

I just wanted to say that I'm greatful for the multitude of discussions we've had about this topic and after reading through all the threads we at the Foreign Ministry have decided to do nothing.

I hate saying that. Makes me feel like I'm not working. I thoroughly enjoy employing counter alliances and getting complex world wars started in my personal games, so it was with some regret that I came to the conclusion that we should fight this one out on our own.

I feel GhengisFarb was most influential in my decision.

I just want us to now determine what our goal should be before we agree to peace with Germany and Persia. I'd like to write up a formula for MWIA or Unortho to use.

Should we agree at Peace as soon as it is offered?
Should we even if we have to pay?
Should we agree only after taking X and Y cities?

Please give me your thoughts.

--Togas

	26-08-2002 21:47									#63
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Regarding the settler stacks: we can chase them and capture them with just one swordsman. We can use our roads as an advantage and travel faster than they do.
Regarding the RoP: how can you curse something that brought so many soon-to-be slaves to our territory?
Regarding rivers: yes they do. AFAIK a unit defending from the other side of a river gets a 50% bonus.

	26-08-2002 21:50									#64
	Re: Decision Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Togas I just wanted to say that I'm greatful for the multitude of discussions we've had about this topic and after reading through all the threads we at the Foreign Ministry have decided to do nothing. I hate saying that. Makes me feel like I'm not working. I thoroughly enjoy employing counter alliances and getting complex world wars started in my personal games, so it was with some regret that I came to the conclusion that we should fight this one out on our own. I feel GhengisFarb was most influential in my decision. I just want us to now determine what our goal should be before we agree to peace with Germany and Persia. I'd like to write up a formula for MWIA or Unortho to use. Should we agree at Peace as soon as it is offered? Should we even if we have to pay? Should we agree only after taking X and Y cities? Please give me your thoughts. --Togas

I would just like to point out that those may be different for each of them. We may want peace ASAP with Persia, but only after we take Berlin with Germany (an example only, not indicative of my feelings, which are...well, I'm from the Hawk party...)

	26-08-2002 22:04									#65
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RE Togas's post: it's okay, sometimes the best thing to do is simply to do nothing. Don't feel bad though, we know you've been working hard (the Foreign Ministry Office thread is amazing!).
In response to your questions, here are my thoughts:

Should we agree at Peace as soon as it is offered?
Yes, unless we think we can take another town or capture another worker/settler the next turn because once the AI is willing to talk about peace he'll continue to, no matter what you do. You can even nuke an AI's capital, but once they're willing to talk about peace they won't back out.
Should we even if we have to pay?
We should not agree to pay unless our situation is critical (say, the AI is about to take Ubergorsk or Del Monte or another major front town).
Should we agree only after taking X and Y cities?
Right now I think we should try to end the wars as soon as possible so we can take incense valley before anyone else does. Therefore it's not a good idea to set solid goals, especially given the fact that in our current situation it's hard to anticipate what might happen next.

	26-08-2002 22:13									#66
	Re: Decision Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Togas I feel GhengisFarb was most influential in my decision. --Togas

I'm "influential"! Not sure what that means, it sounds good!

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Regarding the settler stacks...

I'm officially declaring "Settler Season" in all my private holdings. Season permits may be obtained at my private fortress, "Ming Sing", just north of BHQ.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I would just like to point out that those may be different for each of them. We may want peace ASAP with Persia, but only after we take Berlin with Germany (an example only, not indicative of my feelings, which are...well, I'm from the Hawk party...)

I don't think we will be able to take Berlin. I see us getting Hamburg from rapid mobilization and surprise. At that point we'll be at the end of a road that connects right into Germany's Industrial MegaFactory. They could conceivably pump swordsmen into us faster than our heart-rate.

	26-08-2002 22:16									#67
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Should we agree at Peace as soon as it is offered?

Offered by Persia and Germany : yes ; we are not ideally prepared, and we have higher priorities.

Should we even if we have to pay?

No, particularly the Persians must pay in settlers, in cities or/and in gold.

Should we agree only after taking X and Y cities?
Yes ; Sidon and Munich.

	26-08-2002 22:33									#68
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Do not offer peace to Germany until we have them knock-out!
As Leonard C. once said:

"First, we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin..."

	26-08-2002 22:38									#69
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[OT]
"Everybody knows that the dice are loaded"
Another Leonard Cohen quote. I just felt like I had to contribute.
[/OT]

	27-08-2002 01:58									#70
	Re: Decision Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Togas I just wanted to say that I'm greatful for the multitude of discussions we've had about this topic and after reading through all the threads we at the Foreign Ministry have decided to do nothing. I hate saying that. Makes me feel like I'm not working. I thoroughly enjoy employing counter alliances and getting complex world wars started in my personal games, so it was with some regret that I came to the conclusion that we should fight this one out on our own. I feel GhengisFarb was most influential in my decision. I just want us to now determine what our goal should be before we agree to peace with Germany and Persia. I'd like to write up a formula for MWIA or Unortho to use. Should we agree at Peace as soon as it is offered? Should we even if we have to pay? Should we agree only after taking X and Y cities? Please give me your thoughts. --Togas

hi ,

we should not agree to peace if we can take a bit more out of it , .... but it has to be realistic , if we loose more at the home front because of a long war then we should not go for it , ...

we should not pay a single banana , why , well they started it (!)

we should agree after a couple workers and cities , and some money or even worthless (to a certain point and from the AI's point of view) cities

have a nice day

	27-08-2002 02:48									#71
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I think that GenghisFarb has the best plans concerning this situation. Just about everything he has said in this thread I agree with.

	27-08-2002 02:51									#72
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Togas:

I would recommend making peace with Germany and Persia as soon as possible without us paying money for it, as long as we have lost no cities, so if the Germans take, lets say, Seeberg, no peae until we get seeburg back- but after that, make peace whenever. This will most likely happen if we tak punitive action against these two civs.

On another matter, I think it is imperative to buy either the Republic, which should be cheap now, or Monarchy, which the English, greeks, and Romans have. We need a new gov. pronto. Also, we have to keep Rome out of everything. They are #3, the only civ, along with Greece, who's mlitary makes our look average (we are stron compared to everyone else), they are changing govs. right now, and they have moved close to our new borders. France may have no money left, but we surely can't afford a war with Rome, so I suggest we make nice anyway we can with them, to keep them out of the situation.

	27-08-2002 03:24									#73
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Personally, I'm not worried about Rome, if they declare war on us, we ignore them until they've marched their troops into view of our border. By that time they'll be tired of the war (namely the walk) and ready to make peace.

Then they get to march back home.

	27-08-2002 03:25									#74
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quote: Originally posted by GePap France may have no money left, but we surely can't afford a war with Rome, so I suggest we make nice anyway we can with them, to keep them out of the situation.

It doesn't really matter that France is broke. Either Persia or Germany can bribe Rome or other civs to attack us. This is why I agree we shouldn't get greedy and end the war quickly, even if we seem to be getting the upper hand.

	27-08-2002 04:12									#75
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I agree with the evolving consensus here: accept peace from either Persia or Germany, so long as we don't have to pay for it and so long as we get back any territory they may take from us. If they will pay tribute, accept it, of course. But if we can avoid it, let's not get drawn into a protracted conflict. We need to save our resources, build up our new territory, prepare a strike on America.
On the other hand, if either the Persians or the Germans don't come to the peace table, I don't think it's worth losing sleep over. We can keep Persia at bay. And Germany will need pruning sooner or later. If Bis is anxious for a spanking, we'll oblige.
As far as France is concerned, I favor pressing our attack, and wresting tribute. Let's take the vinyards, and get whatever tech and gold we can, too. No point in letting them sue for peace without tribute.

	27-08-2002 15:45									#76
	Inflate your Upload Space

I tend to agree with the consensus (I'd be hearing all about it if I didn't, that's for sure! ), but there are a coupla points I haven't seen anyone mentioned.

Firstly - the three workers we have stacked W of Ubergorsk, threatened by two stacks of Persian Spearmen/Settlers. They CAN'T get to Loveshack in one turn as they would have to cross the river, and we have not got Engineering, thus we haven't yet the ability to cross roads on rivers as bridges! The only alternative is to move them S or SE, and to move one Spearman out of Ubergorsk to protect them until they reach that city next turn. Seeing as the only threat to that vity is the aforementione Spearman/Settler stack, I think one fortified vet Spearman behind Walls is enough to at least temporarily hold off a Regular Spearman

Secondly, we must do any and all upgrading ASAP, and send these troops to protect the road from Ubergorsk, currently threatened by two separate Persian Spearman/Settler stacks - we lose this, we lose Iron in any city but Ubergorsk, where it is nearly useless anyway. This would be a horrific blow.

Thirdly, to what German Mega-Factory Production centres do you refer? Berlin has potentially 12 shields, but Frankfurt only a max of 9, and I imagine severely less, since those Flood Plains will be well used. I estimate it has only the four that come from its' own tile and the mine. Leipzig has a max of 6, and with the flood plains worked, I estimate only 1-2! Those are all flood plaains there and that is where their pop comes from. No shields there! The only close German city of any size we need to worry about is Berlin, so the only thing to worry about is their standing army, and if they get lots more gold for rushing (no pop-rushing in Republic...

Or are my thoughts plagued by the flu I have, and my eyesite distorted by the conjunctivitis? (Consider that a warning - DO NOT under any circumstances approach me in the street should you see me there. I WILL infect you. I am hoping to use this against the Germans and Persians - by leading our troops personally in lieu of Uber, I will initiate the first germ warfare.)

El Presidente
MrWIA

	27-08-2002 15:51									#77
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Thirdly, to what German Mega-Factory Production centres do you refer? Berlin has potentially 12 shields, but Frankfurt only a max of 9, and I imagine severely less, since those Flood Plains will be well used. I estimate it has only the four that come from its' own tile and the mine. Leipzig has a max of 6, and with the flood plains worked, I estimate only 1-2! Those are all flood plaains there and that is where their pop comes from. No shields there! The only close German city of any size we need to worry about is Berlin, so the only thing to worry about is their standing army, and if they get lots more gold for rushing (no pop-rushing in Republic...

1)To us shield production of 9 is an Extreme MegaFactory! Our core cities use mined grassland and jungle for production (I really wish we would mine that mountain north of BHQ so we have an alternate high production tile for emergencies) while Germany's cities probably used the floodplains to grow big, now that they need units they can switch to hills/mountains and outproduce us.

That's why I advocate mobilizing/blitzkrieging Hamburg and then immediately signing a peace treaty.

	27-08-2002 17:15									#78
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In 5 turns Poly will have a shield production of 10. Our own extreme mega factory

	27-08-2002 19:27									#79
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quote: Originally posted by OPD In 5 turns Poly will have a shield production of 10. Our own extreme mega factory

True, but BHQ has the potential to produce well also if the mountain was mined. The mountatin and two forest are the only major source of production for our Four Core cities. Which will do well for us later as we can use them to quickly build improvemens while growing quickly from the grassland.

	28-08-2002 01:12									#80
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hi ,

all the hills inside city ranges should be mined , ....

Paris should have the hills mined , then the mountains , ...

Paris could become a city with a very high shield production , ......

have a nice day