26-08-2002 14:08									#1
	Cost of spying Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm sorry if this was addressed before, but it shocked me in my weekend game:

I was playing with the egyptians and I was slightly behind the greeks in the science race. At some point they discovered the Radio and since we were anyway in kind of "annoyed" relations and I also had a spy, I thought "why not steal them?" I activated my spy and I saw that the "safe" stealing would have been 2800 gold (I don't remember the other options). I don't know what made me suspicious, but I didn't steal it and instead I talked with the greeks and asked them for a price: it was 2900 gold!!!
How absurd is that? What's the point in stealing, then?

	26-08-2002 15:19									#2
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Thre is no point in spying. The system is flawed but will be improved in PTW.

	26-08-2002 15:25									#3
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quote: Originally posted by statusperfect ... but will be improved in PTW.

Do you know this for sure??

	26-08-2002 15:36									#4
	Re: Cost of spying Full PM-box? Change here!

Stealing is rarely used in Civ3. I have never seen the AI do this (unlike in Civ2 where they did this often ) but I haven't heard of these 'improvements' set for PTW.

I'd be happy to make it a unit again so the cost would be lower because of the difficulty of getting it to an enemy city.

	26-08-2002 15:54									#5
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I second taht NeoStar, I haven't used Spies at all in Civ 3. In Civ 2 Spies became leathal instruments for my cause that sometimes threw the game of balance. That's whay I'd recommend some modding into the current system (i.e. make it a unit, cheaper options, etc.)

Statusperfect where did you hear that? Are you sure?

So long....

	26-08-2002 16:33									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I know that stealing is very rarely used in Civ3; I myself have (almost) used it now for the first time!

Anyway, the whole espionage system in Civ3 is very weak. I bought maybe 3 or 4 cities, stoled the enemy's troops placement plans twice or so and I think that's all. Other than that I used my embasies only to investigate cities.

quote: I'd be happy to make it a unit again

I concur.

	26-08-2002 17:26									#7
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At civ3.com.

quote: ...and a streamlined espionage interface allow for more efficient management.

More efficient mangement they say. For spying. If they make the spy system better maybe we'll use those spies?

	26-08-2002 17:40									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

You're right! I found it here. It says:

quote: Updated interface improvements like auto bombard, rally points, stacked movement and a streamlined espionage interface allow for more efficient management.

I wonder what does this mean

	26-08-2002 17:44									#9
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BTW, what are these "rally points" ?

	26-08-2002 17:53									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius BTW, what are these "rally points" ?

When a unit is built, you can make it go automatically to a rally point (i.e. the square where you have all your tanks stacked f'rinstance). Hopefully it will have some other functionality as well. But it's just a way of speeding up the interface by reducing the number of moves you have to do by hand.

	26-08-2002 18:00									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Just once - that I know about - did an AI Civ attempt to steal a tech from me. That covert operation was twarted by my excellent agents, though. In Civ II, when such things occured, I could usually opt for a declaration of war. But I have never tried to steal techs in Civ III myself. I find it easier to bargain for it.

	26-08-2002 18:02									#12
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I knew what rally points are, from Warcraft3, for example. I just didn't imagine that they'll have the same meaning in civ3!
Interesting. I wonder if I will really use this feature. Probably in wars.

	26-08-2002 18:04									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Lower the price some (by at least half, more for steal tech) and you'll see the computer use lots of them. Set it so that it's cheaper to steal than to buy and you'll see lots of action (which will cause even more wars). It really makes this part of the game more interesting.

	26-08-2002 18:11									#14
	Re: Cost of spying Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I was playing with the egyptians and I was slightly behind the greeks in the science race. At some point they discovered the Radio and since we were anyway in kind of "annoyed" relations and I also had a spy, I thought "why not steal them?" I activated my spy and I saw that the "safe" stealing would have been 2800 gold (I don't remember the other options). I don't know what made me suspicious, but I didn't steal it and instead I talked with the greeks and asked them for a price: it was 2900 gold!!! How absurd is that? What's the point in stealing, then?

From the point of view of the cost to you, there isn't any point (unless stealing the tech is going to have a 97% chance of success or more in the example you give, which is never going to happen, obviously). The simplest analysis is that if you have a certain chance of succesfully stealing the plans (call the chance 'x') then the cost below which stealing becomes profitable is the cost of the tech to buy multiplied by x. So if you have a 60% chance of stealing Radio, it would be worth it if the cost was 0.6 * 2900 = 1740 gold.

First problem: we don't know what the probabilities involved are. Second problem: This ignored the negative effects of being caught stealing techs, wihch at the least will worsen relations and may drive up the price of the tech. And may get you involved in a war. The 'cost' of that in terms of gold is very subjective, and no doubt changes in different game situations.

One argument in favour of stealing rather than buying is that if you buy the tech, Greece gets 2900 gold, while if you steal it they get nothing. Denying your main opponent 2900 gold (which will let him run at a higher science rate for a few turns, or let him rush buy a quite a few universities that he hasn't finished yet) is always a good thing. Especially at the beginning of the modern age, when upgrading lots of infantry to MI is just around the corner (I spent 2020 gold in one turn upgrading in a game yesterday, and that was Leonardo's to halve the cost....) and there are research labs to be built. If you are planning on slapping Alexander around with tanks in a little while, not giving him that much gold is definitely a worthwhile consideration.

	26-08-2002 18:20									#15
	Tired of ads?

Streamlined means simpler and with less features, in Furaxis speek. How they are going to make the current espionage system less featurefull is beyond me . Prehaps they'll just remove everything except the investigate city because thats pretty much all people use espionage for. It'd streamline the process.

	26-08-2002 18:31									#16
	Re: Re: Cost of spying Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by vulture One argument in favour of stealing rather than buying is that if you buy the tech, Greece gets 2900 gold, while if you steal it they get nothing. Denying your main opponent 2900 gold (which will let him run at a higher science rate for a few turns, or let him rush buy a quite a few universities that he hasn't finished yet) is always a good thing.

That's a valid point. I haven't think of that; I was only thinking from my point of view, namely spending the same amount of money.
There is though one negative impact, too: stealing worsens the relations with your opponents while trading a tech improves them. Well, this is not really countable in terms of gold, so probably depends on the "battlefield situation".
Anyway, the fact that so few people uses the spying system (including stealing) from Civ3 tells a lot about the quality of it.

	26-08-2002 18:35									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Blake Prehaps they'll just remove everything except the investigate city because thats pretty much all people use espionage for. It'd streamline the process.

LOL. You've hit the nail right on the head, Blake.

	26-08-2002 22:11									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The only problem about spyingin Civ III is that it is too damn exspensive. Cut all the prices at least by half to make it viable.

	26-08-2002 22:43									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Using espionage relies upon you planting a spy - something that I seem to have a VERY hard time doing. I almost always seem to get caught trying to plant a spy. It's tantamount to flushing 200 gold down the toilet given my rate of success. The only thing I can see it being useful for is that an annoyed AI Civ will often times declare war if they catch you trying to plant a spy. Does anyone know if being a Commy increases your chances of successfully planting a spy? Will it also reduce the cost? Given the utter uselessness of the current espionage options, I have taken no time to explore anything about it. Any help, or direction to a FAQ/strategy thread on the subject would be appreciated!

I will say that spies in Civ2 were pretty unbalancing. A team of spies and a fairly large treasury were enough to cripple an AI Civ - I think that Firaxis tried to tone down the impact of espionage a bit, but hit WAY off the mark by making it all but useless. I really hope they bring back spying in a more balanced way in PtW, as playing dirty tricks on the enemy is always good for a few (evil) laughs

	26-08-2002 23:25									#20
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quote: Originally posted by metalhead Using espionage relies upon you planting a spy - something that I seem to have a VERY hard time doing. I almost always seem to get caught trying to plant a spy. It's tantamount to flushing 200 gold down the toilet given my rate of success. The only thing I can see it being useful for is that an annoyed AI Civ will often times declare war if they catch you trying to plant a spy. Does anyone know if being a Commy increases your chances of successfully planting a spy? Will it also reduce the cost? ...

Planting a spy is worth trying. I have even failed once and then succeeded on my 2nd attempt in the same turn!

Communist governments have enhanced probabilities of success with spy missions and plantings (my personal perception).

Regarding planting spies, sometimes when I am about to quit for the evening I will save the game, THEN try the plant or spy mission and save again only if successful. (Yes, definitely cheating. The other cheat I do is investigate cities after I save the game).

	27-08-2002 00:26									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Communist governments have enhanced probabilities of success with spy missions and plantings (my personal perception).

Not your personal perception. It says right in the 'pedia that Communism improves the succes chance of espionage actions.

	27-08-2002 01:11									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I lowered steal tech mission cost to 70% (having cost of 50% was to much, already playtested that).

And have also havled cost of propaganda mission.

All other cost are OK.

	27-08-2002 01:23									#23
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I know it says increased chance of success on espionage missions in the 'pedia, and i think the fire log that came with the game (or was that supposed to be a manual?), but I'm not sure if that includes the actual planting of the spy.

As far as planting goes, I have tried 10 times in a row before to plant a spy in an enemy civ on the same turn, and been caught every time. I have tried to plant a spy in every other enemy civ (5 or 6) and been unsuccessful on every one. I could deal with a 1 in 2 or even 1 in 3 chance of success in spy planting, but when you try over 30 times in 1 game to plant a spy, only to end up 5000 gold poorer and with all other civs annoyed (and, in one case, at war) with you, it tends to sour you on the whole espionage thing.

Completely OT - will PtW include an UPDATED, USEFUL manual, or just documentation of additions/changes/MP options?

	27-08-2002 01:29									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

A tip:
If you fail once in esp. mission in that turn, all other attampts will be automatic failures.

After failure you should wait several turns, and then try again.

	27-08-2002 01:45									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by player1 A tip: If you fail once in esp. mission in that turn, all other attampts will be automatic failures. After failure you should wait several turns, and then try again.

I disagree, from personal experience.

quote: Planting a spy is worth trying. I have even failed once and then succeeded on my 2nd attempt in the same turn!

It's all a matter of that randomizer thingy. It CAN seem like it's a vinyl turntable with "the record's stuck, the record's stuck, ...".

	27-08-2002 01:48									#26
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Player1 is correct, if you fail once, you will fail repeatedly if you try again that turn. Wait a turn and try again.

Planting a spy is worthwhile because you get to see the AI's entire order of battle. I like knowing exactly how many enemy infantry, tanks, etc. I'm going up against.

Steal plans, steal tech, and propoganda mission are each wastes of money, IMO. I can see a situation where I might consider trying to steal tech (late-game, high difficulty level... desperately trying to beat the AI to SS launch).

-Arrian

	27-08-2002 02:50									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have succeeded in espionage missions and/or planting spies even though I had previously failed in the same turn .

But I can't recall succeeding in the same mission against the same target -- I have failed to plant a spy among the Chinese but then succeeded in planting a spy among the French on the same turn; I can't recall failing to plant a spy among the Chinese, and then trying again and succeeding with the Chinese on the same turn.

Catt

	27-08-2002 13:36									#28
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I found this on civfanatics.com :

quote: Civilizations with lower Culture values are more easily oppressed in diplomacy.

Interesting. I didn't know that.
I wonder what does this mean exactly (for civs with high culture): lower cost or higher chances for succeding in espionage missions?; or maybe just better results in diplomatic/trade negotiations?

	27-08-2002 13:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe I disagree, from personal experience.

I disagree with YOU, from my OWN personal experience.

	27-08-2002 14:00									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Steal plans, steal tech, and propoganda mission are each wastes of money, IMO. I can see a situation where I might consider trying to steal tech (late-game, high difficulty level... desperately trying to beat the AI to SS launch). -Arrian

Steal plans is no waste at all.

At least at smaller maps, and when your oponent is not 30+ cities civ (in other cases it IS too much expensive).

Then getting enemy plans would be serous boost to your strategy planning.



Another thing.

Steal tech starts to become usefull in modern age when tech. become ridiculusly expensive to buy.

But it only pays off in just one or (or maybe 2) civs have same tech.
In other cases, buying price will be lowered, and steal tech priuce would stay same, so it would not pay off.

And, as far as I have played.
My all "safe" steal tech attempts were always succesfull.