Apolyton Archive  |  Preserved copy of the Apolyton Civilization Site and its forums as they stood in September 2005. Read-only; nothing here can be posted to or replied to.  |  Forum index |  About this archive |  The 1998–2001 UBB forums
Today on Apolyton WARDELL INTERVIEW PROMO A.C.S. HISTORY CHAPTER 4 GET CIV4 /w FREE PLUS! A.C.S. PHOTO GALLERY GET A.O.M. V1.1
Apolyton Civilization Forums
main| civ2| civ3| civ4| smac| ctp2| ron| moo3| galciv| galciv2| alt| about|
ApolytonPLUS | register | search | faq | new posts | pm (-/-) | upload | members
hall of fame new! | civgroups | civgroups news | interviews | the column | radio | chat | directory | news | store | PLUS
Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Religious tolerance or safety?
Show a Printable Version | Email This Page to Someone! | Receive updates to this thread | Report this to Apolyton news!

bottom of page
  
Author
Thread   
Pages (4): [ 1   2   3   4   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
Kontiki is offline Kontiki
Settler
Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:05
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#1 Report this post to a moderator
Religious tolerance or safety? Support Apolyton

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Alberta Sikhs want exemption from bike helmet law

By DAWN WALTON


Tuesday, August 27, 2002 – Page A6

CALGARY -- Some Sikhs in Alberta are planning legal action unless the provincial government exempts turban-wearing children from its bicycle-helmet law.

Happy Mann, a spokesman from Calgary's Sikh community, said that without an amendment to recently introduced helmet regulations his members will have no choice but to file a complaint with the Alberta Human Rights and Citizenship Commission or launch a constitutional challenge.

"This is discrimination," Mr. Mann said. "The turban is part of our religious identity and the turban has been considered part of religious dress. We cannot compromise the turban at any cost."

The helmet law, which came into effect May 1, saddles parents with a $50 fine if their child, aged 15 years or younger, is caught riding a bike without a helmet. Sixteen- and 17-year-olds riding without protective headgear will be issued a fine themselves.

But turban-wearing children say they cannot fit a helmet over their religious headdress. Religious leaders have advised Sikhs to ban their children from bike riding until the issue is settled.

Karnvir Singh, 13, used to ride his bike every nice day. But the Calgary teen hasn't ridden all summer.

"I'm just afraid to get a ticket," he said.

A helmet doesn't fit over his turban, something he believes should never be covered with additional headgear anyway because it holds deep religious significance. He misses riding to his friends' homes and getting the exercise.

"We want to give our kids back their childhood," Mr. Mann said.

About 60,000 Sikhs live in Alberta.

Tory MLA Yvonne Fritz introduced the law last year as a private member's bill. She saw it as a proactive safety measure in a province where bicycling tops the list of recreational activities that cause major trauma. At the time, she said no concerns about discrimination were raised about her proposal.

Once it passed into law, however, the Sikh lobbying effort went into high gear.

Since then, Transportation Minister Ed Stelmach and Ms. Fritz have met with Sikh representatives. Ms. Fritz wrote to helmet manufacturers to find out whether headgear could be modified to fit around turbans. Her office has yet to hear back.

In the meantime, Sikh representatives have rejected that proposal, worried that odd-looking helmets would subject their children to taunts. They have written to Mr. Stelmach to try to persuade the government to exempt turban-wearing children from the law.

"We are very much concerned about our kids' safety as well," Mr. Mann said, "but sometimes [we] have to make individual choices."

A turban offers similar protection in case of a fall, he added.

An official with Mr. Stelmach's office said the minister is on holiday and has yet to read the letter proposing an exemption.

Rules aimed at safety concerns or at upholding tradition have fallen to religious rights before.

Restrictions on wearing turbans in the RCMP and Legion halls have been eased. In 1996, British Columbia amended its bicycle-helmet law to exempt Sikhs who wear turbans after members of the Sikh community there lobbied for the change. Three years later, the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal ruled that a provincial law that forced motorcyclists to wear helmets discriminated against turban-wearing Sikhs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What do you think of this? I'm not sure where I stand just yet. I can see the whole RCMP thing (for those of you who don't know, our national police force, the RCMP, has a hat as part of its uniform. Sikhs successfully lobbied to allow the wearing of their religious turbans instead of the cap), but helmet laws are in place for public safety......

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:12 Visit loinburger's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#2 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Helmet laws are overkill to begin with. Helmets ought to be worn for competitive bike riding or mountain biking, but they ought to be completely discretionary for casual riding.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:15
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#3 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

How does a 13 year old no anything about deep religiois significance

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
King
NYC
Sep 2000
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:19
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#4 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

If they dont want to wear their helmet because of a turban why should anyone make them? Its their funeral.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:20
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#5 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

What if they are kids?

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
King
NYC
Sep 2000
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#6 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Its up to their parents.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:21
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#7 Report this post to a moderator
Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote:
Originally posted by TheStinger
What if they are kids?
You sound like a supporter of the drug war.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#8 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton

quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
You sound like a supporter of the drug war.

Kontiki is offline Kontiki
Settler
Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#9 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Without getting into a debate about the merits of helmet laws (which I can see is already starting), the idea behind them is that there are far less serious injuries when helmets are worn. Serious injuries don't always mean death (although that's obviously one possible outcome), but also serious medical costs payed for by the taxpayer.

Thucydides is offline Thucydides
King
Screw you guys, I'm going home.
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#10 Report this post to a moderator
Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

They should stop fining people for "public safety", instead what cops should do would be report people not wearing helmets, not buckling safety belts, etc to the persons insure companies. Thus, people would still have all the rights they want to do whatever unsafe things they want, but would pay for it with higher health insurance rates.

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:26 Visit loinburger's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#11 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by Kontiki
Serious injuries don't always mean death (although that's obviously one possible outcome), but also serious medical costs payed for by the taxpayer.


I suppose that if you've got socialized health care that helmet laws are justified for this reason alone.

How about some enterprising Sikh invents a kevlar turban or something.

Caligastia is offline Caligastia
King
NYC
Sep 2000
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:26
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#12 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Maybe they could wear the helmet under the turban.

drake is offline drake
King
Maine, US
Oct 2000
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:36 Visit drake's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#13 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Damn fanatics.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
Emperor
Liberal and defender of freedoms for the people
Oct 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:39
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#14 Report this post to a moderator
Increase the size of your Attachments

Tell them their religion is false and get on with it.

Thucydides is offline Thucydides
King
Screw you guys, I'm going home.
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:40
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#15 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

missed an important point, it happened in Canada which has socialized medicine. Just send the parents the bill when a kid breaks his head for not wearing a helmet.

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:44
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#16 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thats the problem with religion, they all want you to do something silly e.g wear a hat/turban, eat certain foods,work on certain days,read the correct books, pray facing the right direction,treat cows as sacred,venerate your ancestors, and other such things.

Why don't they just saytreat everyone decently adn do away with the ritual nonsense

Buck Birdseed is offline Buck Birdseed
Emperor
Khoon Ki Pyasi Dayan (1988)
Nov 2000
time: 05:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:51 Visit Buck Birdseed's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#17 Report this post to a moderator
Suffering from ads?

Why should parents be able to decide over the life and death of their children? You americans are so cold-blooded and evil I get scared, often.

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:52 Visit loinburger's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#18 Report this post to a moderator
Enter the AD-FREE zone

Treat everyone decently? You heretic!!!

TheStinger is offline TheStinger
Warlord
International crime fighting playboy
Apr 2002
time: 05:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:53
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#19 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote:
Originally posted by loinburger
Treat everyone decently? You heretic!!!


everyone except the non believers of course

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 20:55 Visit loinburger's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#20 Report this post to a moderator
Inflate your Upload Space

quote:
Originally posted by Buck Birdseed
Why should parents be able to decide over the life and death of their children? You americans are so cold-blooded and evil I get scared, often.


Since when is "not wearing a helmet on your bicycle" equivalent to "being sentenced to die"? Stop being so melodramatic.

Kontiki is offline Kontiki
Settler
Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 22:12
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#21 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I guess the bigger question really is should certain religious groups be exempt from laws that apply to everyone else. There are plenty of examples of this happening, but how far should it be taken? Note: I'm not saying that helmet laws are an extreme situation, I'm just wondering how far exemptions should go.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 22:20
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#22 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

As far as the U.S. goes, I support laws requiring helmets and seatbelts, etc., so long as our healthcare system is the way it is. If a kid goes and splits his head open and doesn't have insurance, the hospital is obligated to treat him and the cost gets passed on to everyone else anyway. Why not try to reduce potential costs with pre-emptive action? Certainly requiring helmets would be better than banning the activity...

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 22:21 Visit MrFun's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#23 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Loinburger, you do realize that a helmet minimizes serious head injuries right??

What did you think helmets are for??

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 22:22
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#24 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Why should government protect you from yourself?

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 22:23
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#25 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Why should government protect you from yourself?


Realistically, this is always going to be a part of any government. The good of the many outweigh the good of the few, and sometimes the good of the many means protecting some imbecile from hurting himself.

Kepler is offline Kepler
Settler
Lovely Oregon
Jul 2002
time: 21:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 22:24
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#26 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

Not wearing a seat belt or helmet should be like drunk driving. You lose your right to injury benefits. That's much better than having a law.

If you think it's an absolute truth that a law that saves lives is worth the expense of freedom, then we should have mandatory speed limits of 1 mph. Think of all the lives that would save. Even cute little children.

Stefu is offline Stefu
Emperor
CLOWNS WIT DA DOWNS 4 LIFE YO!
Jan 1970
time: 07:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 22:25 Visit Stefu's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#27 Report this post to a moderator
Remove this text

I think the answer is obvious. They should wear turbans, since turbans are safer. Why? Simple experiment: Drop a bicycle helmet and a turban from a high building. Helmet breaks. Turban doesn't.

loinburger is offline loinburger
Emperor
Sweet Sauce Jones
Jul 1999
time: 00:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 22:55 Visit loinburger's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#28 Report this post to a moderator
Put an end to popups!

quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Loinburger, you do realize that a helmet minimizes serious head injuries right??

What did you think helmets are for??


I thought they were used as portable toilets, 'cause I'm so fucking stupid.

What gave you the impression that I don't know what a bicycle helmet is for, BTW?

Lincoln is offline Lincoln
King
TN
Jul 2000
time: 05:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 23:04 Visit Lincoln's homepage!
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#29 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

When helmets are outlawed only outlaws will have helmets... Oh wait, wrong thread. OK, nevermind. The nanny state needs to keep track of its own corrupt officials and not worry about what people's kids wear when they ride a bicycle. The world is full of risks -- even for kids. People need to deal with it without passing new laws.

As far as the religious issue, they have a point. It isn't exactly like they are sacrificing babies or something. Of course maybe in the eyes of socialists they are sacrificing babies on the alter of that quaint little old concept called freedom.

Ethelred is offline Ethelred
King

Mar 2002
time: 21:22
  Old Post 27-08-2002 23:18
Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
#30 Report this post to a moderator
Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Evolution in action.



I guess the Sikhs will just have to breed faster or go extinct in the world of two wheeled transportation.

However if an adult wants to be a stupid fool that is one thing. Making their children die on the altar of their idiocy is another thing.

Never ride a motorcycle without a helmet. You don't have to make a single mistake for some blind driver to look RIGHT AT YOU and then make a left hand turn in front of you and claim they didn't see you. I have had people change lanes with me directly lined up with their head and in no way whatsoever in their blind spot. I even looked at the side of her head as she blithely continued on into my lane. Bicycles can only be worse.

 
Pages (4): [ 1   2   3   4   ]
< Last Thread     Next Thread > Post New Thread     Post A Reply
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:22.
Apolyton Time is 00:22.
    top of page
Rate This Thread:
archivepost
Forum Jump:
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
 




Contact Us - Apolyton Civilization Site - Support Us!

Building a better Apolyton through better information. Click here and take our poll!
Non-US visitors, click here!

Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.0.3
Copyright ©2000, 2001, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.

Page generated in 0.0684 seconds (91.45% PHP - 8.55% MySQL) with 31 queries
Page Loading Time:

Support Apolyton: Amazon USA | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon FR |
Support Apolyton and get FREE PLUS, Buy from Chips&Bits: Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition | Call to Power 2 | Civilization: The Boardgame | GURPS/ Alpha Centauri | Alpha Centauri | Civilization IV | Civilization III: Complete |


Front Page | Civilization IV | Civilization III | Civilization II | Call to Power II | Alpha Centauri | Master of Orion III
Rise of Nations | Galactic Civilizations | Galactic Civilizations II | Misc
Alt.Civs | Civ I | C:CtP I | About | News | Directory | Apolyton Store | Forums | Chat | Columns | Interviews | Newsletter
Scenario League | CSC | Clash of Civs | Spanish Site | CtP Maps | Cradle of Civ | WesW's Ctp1/2 Site | Civ3 Haven

apolyton.net | apolyton.com | civilization2.net | civilization3.net | civilization4.net | civilizationiv.info | calltopower.net | galciv.net | galciv2.net | moo3.net