30-08-2002 04:47									#31
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I now support suing for rheims (sp), and anything else with it. Chartres will be ours through culture eventually.

	30-08-2002 05:06									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I think suing for peace in exchange for additional towns is a bad idea. Most of the towns France has to offer are of no real use for us. In fact, other than Chartres they're all pretty much useless to us. We need to trade with France in exchange for Feudalism. If we can move our forces in a way that would threaten another French town the French might drop the price slightly but I believe we'd still have to pay for Feudalism in the end, even if we offer a RoP along with a peace treaty.

I think we should take all the useless cities they give us and give them away to civs we want to stay friendly with, at least until we're ready to pluck them like juicy ripe fruit.

	30-08-2002 05:10									#33
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Get a decent night's sleep .... yada yada yada ..... for future successes. El Presidente MrWIA QUOTE HAS BEEN EDITED TO SAVE TREES

Alright, then. Problem fixed. Let's cut off the President's arm and let bygones be bygones.

Who's got the blade?

	30-08-2002 05:39									#34
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I'm not quite sure how to take that!


Did I not manage to pass the buck sufficiently?

	30-08-2002 05:51									#35
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fits all scenarios.

"My wife left me."
"I won the lottery."
"Boy ice cream tastes good."
"Where is my leg?"

	30-08-2002 05:54									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Epistax "Boy ice cream tastes good."

yeah we only get vanilla and chocolate where I live.

	30-08-2002 05:56									#37
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You did a good job MWIA, my initial anger was the of the just waking up and being shocked variety. One question left, if you caught the nw error, how did we end up one turn behind?.
1 turn ne,n
1,turn n
attack
I was just wondering.
What I would have done with the archer was attack first then if we had spare people counter attack, but it would depend on more things than could be put into a turnthread so it is nobody's fault, just the fortunes of war. Actually this increaes the realism of the game experience, just as in real life orders aren't always followed perfectlydue to communication problems. That is a big arguement for turnchats in wartime and turn thread in peacetime. But I realize this can't always be since RL intervines. Still , for the turn we gained much. Once again I apoligize for the outburst and anger this morning.
Aggie

	30-08-2002 06:01									#38
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quote: Originally posted by OPD yeah we only get vanilla and chocolate where I live.

girl ice cream is better.


(Please note in cases where Epistax forgets a puncuation mark, it is due to his stupidity and ineptitude, not any form of cunning trickery. If any cunning trickery occures, please be aware that it was an accident. mmm... boy...)

	30-08-2002 06:07									#39
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No worries, Aggie. I understand mornings. Unfortunately I haven't yet had the chance to leave my room (it's 1pm here!) due to all the urgent replying.

The one turn behind was in relation to the Sword Army attacking Marseilles. Your orders had that at 230 BC (IIRC), but we didn't reach the outskirts until then. I continued to 210 BC just to carry out that attack.

Epi - girl ice cream? Is that another name for pie?

OK, so how many are posting drunk again?

OPD, Epistax(?), and who else?

	30-08-2002 06:13									#40
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nah! i can't get drunk itza thurzday! i can only get drunk before the weekend, and thats... ... ... in a few days. anyway

	30-08-2002 07:14									#41
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MWIA, Chiquita is correct.

	30-08-2002 09:34									#42
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After reading this post I can honestly say that I have never been more confused in my entire life.

	30-08-2002 10:35									#43
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Questions for me, Donal?

	30-08-2002 14:41									#44
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Rouen is just next the last row of mountains ; if it is ours, the nomansland is entirely made of mountains which is perfect for defense. If Rouen stays in the hands of the French, who knows what could happen in the future. Who wants the Romans in Rouen ?

	30-08-2002 21:23									#45
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Okay definitely want Rouen now. Rouen is a useless garbage dump of a city but directly west of it is a location for a city that would gain us an extra iron.

I repeat that I think we should make peace with the French and Germans and NOT take Chartres, Rheims, or Munich. We can't take those cities, only destroy them. Consider it cultivation of Christmas Hams. When the're ripe and juicy we take them.

Right now I think we should concentrate on building up the size and capabilities of our cities so we can compete with the Greeks, Germans, Aztecs, and Romans. A lot of 2-3 size cities are gonna have an uphill battle against a lot of 6-8 size cities.

Oh and the arm thing, nothing personal, your still the President oh great one-armed one.

	31-08-2002 04:38									#46
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Update: Top post updated with a hopeful time for the chat.

Sorry it took until now, but Saturday this week is bad for me. Things change next week.


As in they get better.

	31-08-2002 07:08									#47
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Thank you all for making the plan so abundantly clear that even I can understand it This is in so many threads now that, once again, not even I can miss it.

Just want to make sure you don't lose another arm.........

	01-09-2002 05:49									#48
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Well, I was LATE, we finished off 210 BC and THAT'S it, I decided to some approval to end it there and revise how turnchats are done (again). But the techwhoring was a MAJOR success.

Turnchat
210 BC

-AA E to threaten Rheims
-Spearman in loveshack E E
-Warrior near Antioch n
-2 Workers in Marseille skip turn
-Swordman outside of Marseilles into Marseille, fortify
Spearman in gaia fortify
-Worker stack W of Loveshack, took 1 of OUR workers and goto worker stack near termina
-Here It Is workers - skip turn
-Both Galleys move 2 square NE
-Apolyton switch from forest to whale
-Timeline - switch from road to forrest
-Seeberg, Napoleton & Geofront, build city wall immediately
-Spearman in Geofront NNN
-Peace with France for Rouen and Cherbourg
-Buy Feudalism from France for 371 gold (all our gold) and 9gpt
-Trade Feudalism w/ Russia for Rep, WM and 28g
-Trade Feudalism w/ Rome for Monarchy, WM and 54g
-Trade Monarchy w Iroqs for 19g and WM
-Feud and Monarchy to Babs for Mono, WM and 15!
-Mono to France for WM + 371g + 1gpt

In brief, we made some small moves, did a few rearrangments of workers, made Peace with France and out of the turn we netted

-Monotheism
-Monarchy
-Republic
-116 gold

and we lose 8gpt now. We have a total of 471 gold and an income of 21gpt currently.

Attachment: banana of the egyptians, 210 bcend.sav
This has been downloaded 23 time(s).

	01-09-2002 06:04									#49
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The GOOD:

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt -Monotheism -Monarchy -Republic -116 gold and we lose 8gpt now. We have a total of 471 gold and an income of 21gpt currently.

20 turns X 8 gold = 160 gold
160 - 116 =44(we got our 8 gold a turn NOW, not 8 per turn)

So basicaly we got Monarchy, Monotheism, Republic, and 14 turns worth of 8gpt for well nothing.

If we go to war with France before 15 turns are up we REALLY lost nothing.



The BAD:

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt -2 Workers in Marseille skip turn

What happened to building that road in the jungle tile NW of Marsilles so we could connect to the Greek Capital?
(not as BAD as the GOOD)

	01-09-2002 06:05									#50
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Had I known we were actually going to make peace this turn, I would have preferred having the workers in occupied France wait instead of skip :-/ Then we could be doing some serious work in France and getting a turn ahead! Doh!!

My fault, but lessons learned for next time. :-/

Perhaps we should make it custom to WAIT all units with no orders instead of skipping a turn, that way we can wait for all diplomatic proceedings to take place? Bah, my fault though, miscommunication.

	01-09-2002 06:37									#51
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Yes, yes, "wait". This "skipping" not good.
"Wait" much better.

	01-09-2002 07:05									#52
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Had I known we were actually going to make peace this turn, I would have preferred having the workers in occupied France wait instead of skip :-/ Then we could be doing some serious work in France and getting a turn ahead! Doh!! My fault, but lessons learned for next time. :-/ Perhaps we should make it custom to WAIT all units with no orders instead of skipping a turn, that way we can wait for all diplomatic proceedings to take place? Bah, my fault though, miscommunication.

This is likely standard practice anyway and in my haste to get things going, I just pressed "skip". Sorry, but that chat was mayhem. We must make sure no President or VP needs to face that situation again. It can do nothing but cause problems.

	01-09-2002 08:00									#53
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Great turn, MWIA. Those techwhoring stuff really works!

Note: I never been in a turnchat (I’ve tried, once), But seems the turnthreads works better. Less emotion, maybe, for the people usually in those chats. However, less (natural) mistakes, too.

	01-09-2002 14:25									#54
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Peace with France for Rouen and Cherbourg -Buy Feudalism from France for 371 gold (all our gold) and 9gpt -Trade Feudalism w/ Russia for Rep, WM and 28g -Trade Feudalism w/ Rome for Monarchy, WM and 54g -Trade Monarchy w Iroqs for 19g and WM -Feud and Monarchy to Babs for Mono, WM and 15! -Mono to France for WM + 371g + 1gpt[/B]

This is not what I ordered. What I ordered was clearly posted in the turnchat thread for 210 and it is listed below:

quote: Peace Terms for France: Sue for peace AFTER Rheims destroyed and French counter-attack routed. (two turns from now) Demand: Feudalism. Pay additional funds if necessary. If cities available, priority 1) Chartres 2) Rouen. Push for as much as possible. Do not agree to RoP with France. Tech Trading After aquiring Feudalism from France, trade it to Aztecs for Monarchy and whatever else you can get. Sell Feudalism to Rome for as much profit as possible. If we had to pay Joan for Feudalism, sell her Monarchy to recoup our expenses.

While I don't mind the additional trading to Babylon and France that netted us Monotheism and most of our money back, what I DO mind is that I specifically ordered something that was expressly not followed.

The President is not given the authority to make or veto diplomatic decisions made by the Foreign Ministry.

I'd better have an apology in my PM box by tomorrow. I'm extremely p***ed off about this. This will not happen ever again, I can assure you.

--Togas

	01-09-2002 17:47									#55
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No offence to anybody in particular, but that turn chat was a farce. Over 2 hours of playing, we got through mabee 1/2 of a turn. Not acceptable. There was miscommunication all over the place; people were not prepaired; and overall organization did not exist.

Togas, I wish to appoloigize, because what occured was to some extent my fault.

We need to fix this system, if it is to work. Think I will start a thread about this.....and how to fix it.

	01-09-2002 19:32									#56
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A dumb question: why did we not trade any tech with the Aztecs? Just curious, no criticizing.

	01-09-2002 19:43									#57
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The backward Aztecs have nothing to offer in return.

	01-09-2002 20:07									#58
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Why not post the new 210 BC save in a new thread ..?

	01-09-2002 23:48									#59
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I also share responsibility for the Foreign Ministry Issue.

I had every intention of being at the Turnchat, and had I been there I would have recognized that those were not Togas' orders.

I owe an apology to the Demo Game community -- my access to the net went down, and I didn't make the chat as I'd intended to, which meant that (persumably) there was no one to take over for Togas when he had to leave.

There was also confusion due to the fact that in the discussion thread for the topic the Foreign Ministry did not post that this plan was not currently in the orders, and was not to be followed unless it was added.

I also will assume some of the responsibilty for this confusion. I PMmed back and forth with Togas once or twice on the issue, trying to see if there was any way we could incorperate this into our plans while still addressing any concerns. When it became time for the chat, however, I should have posted that it is currently not in the orders and (as such) should not be followed unless Togas adds it in.

One thing that I hope the Constitutional Convention will address is Tech Trade powers -- currently, the power is granted to the Foreign Minister but many citizens seem to feel that the Science Minister has power in this area too, which might have contributed to the confusion as Apoc came out in support of this plan. This clearly needs to be clarified. I will also push for a more formal system of submitting orderes -- right now, we have orders posted in several places, plus standing orders in some Office Threads (I know our office thread has generic standing orders). We clearly need a place where all finalized orders will be posted or sent, and any updates must be made there. That way, in a case like this, it would be easy to check if this plan had been added into the Orders.

My apologies to Togas, MWIA, and anyone else who was affected by these events for my part in them. Hopefully we can put this behind us, make a few reforms to prevent it from happening again, and continue on with the wonderful job that this administration has been doing as a whole.

-- adaMada

EDIT: Clarity

Last edited by adaMada on 02-09-2002 at 01:37

	02-09-2002 00:07									#60
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Togas:

I too was extremely pissed that your plans were not followed not only because it was the best way forward but also as other plans had been based on your plans.

I tried to kick up a fuss about it in the chat but I had nothing to back me up as you didn't post any orders in the "turnchat orders for 210bc" thread.

At the time I was extremely pissed!!! but the fact that the tech whoring went so well means that its not such a big deal.

2 hours to do 1/2 a turn is just ridiculous. With so mich crap floating around it's no wonder some orders go astray. MWIA did a good chat under the circumstances and the idea of having a pre turnthread chat is a good one.

Last edited by OPD on 02-09-2002 at 00:12