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Midshipman
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Apolyton Paintball Champion
Apr 2000
time: 05:22
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I say ditch it.
As of this point, I am active duty military with a forward deployed squadron. We are almost all volunteers, except for a few guyus who had a choice between the Navy or jail. I can tell the difference between them and the people who signed up on their own. They have no drive and motivation, and if there was a draft again, we'd just get more people like that.
Also, in the current military, to be anything more than a grunt, you must go to school. I spent 15 months in school to be a helicopter crewchief and an electrician - that kind of thing would not work with a draft
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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monk,
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I'm in agreement with Sava here David, moreover, as a christian you should support programs that help out those less fortunate than you to the best of your ability. You shouldn't resist them kicking and screaming. You will have to answer for your actions one day you know. |
Exactly. And one of the 10 Commandments states very clearly, "Thou shalt not STEAL". Forcing me to give up money to give to someone else is certainly stealing. I have no problem with charitable giving, but I do have a problem with stealing.
dissident,
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As for germany of course their u-boats posed a significant threat. I think volunteers were enough to support naval manpower needs. |
Absolutely, in fact, the majority of naval and marine personnel were volunteers.
Sava,
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Maybe I'm just silly, but don't you think the reason nobody can invade us is because of the deterrence of our military? And much of that deterrence is the fact that we'll send every able-bodied man (and now women) to die in the defense of freedom? But again, maybe I'm just silly. |
No, nobody can invade us because nobody has the naval and logistical capacity to get over here, and the only two countries that border us have militaries that probably compete with each other for who sucks the most.
In any case, we have nukes, that is deterrant enough.
quote:
Oh, I'm sorry. Can you tell me where the free school is. I'd like to finish up my under-grad and not have to pay this huge student loan. And next time I get sick, can you tell me where the free-hospital is so I'm not stuck paying thousands of dollars in medical fees? |
I can certainly tell you where to get a free meal if you are starving, or a free cot if you are on the streets. True, private charity doesn't provide directly for free education and healthcare, but it IS true that private donations and charity provide a lot of scholarship programs - and since these are private, they don't have to hand them out to some schmuck who happens to be 1/8 American Indian, they can hand them out to someone who deserves them, like the guy with the 4.0 in high school who has all AP courses and has pulled himself up by his own bootstraps and doesn't expect free ****. If that's not you, sorry. As to health care, there are also certainly ways to raise money to pay for an expensive prodedure.
Don't tell me that down on their luck people, sick people, or people who want an education but can't afford it don't have options open to them, without federal aid programs. They do.
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Rich people only give enough money to make it look like they're making a difference. Don't you dare say that corporations actually care about giving money to charities. Corporations only care about profit margins and making money. Only very few people actually contribute money in goodwill rather than to improve their image. |
So? Regardless of intentions, they give more money than we'll ever see in our lifetime, and it goes a hell of a lot further than my taxes do.
quote:
So legislating morality is wrong? Then should murder/stealing be legal?
Law is legislated morality, buddy. |
I agree with you TO AN EXTENT. Law legislates morality in that it says not to violate the rights of others, or hurt others, which we judge as a good moral position. That is self-evident.
When someone says that law shouldn't legislate morality, most likely what they mean is that there should not be laws against "sins" that are basically victimless in nature, such as alcohol and drug use, prostitution, gambling, etc.
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Felch
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Germantown, Maryland
Sep 2001
time: 00:22
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There is a difference between saying, "Don't do anything that hurts other people," and saying, "Do something to help people."
Preventing bad stuff is different from forcing good stuff. It's the essence of Natural Law, the founding ideal of the United States.
Since you clearly don't give enough of a rat's ass about a liberal education to read books, I'll give you a quick overview.
People have rights. These rights don't require anybody else to exist, that is to say, they exist in nature. It is just as easy to enjoy your rights to life, liberty and property in Papua New Guinea as in Texas as in the Stone Age, assuming the local population isn't stealing them from you. The only requirement in fact, is that you respect other people's rights to life, liberty, and property. Ideally if everybody respects everybody else, they can all have these rights without any need for legislation or even government. They exist in nature, and require nothing except inaction to continue to exist. When they are threatened however, they do need to be protected.
The rights that you mention are not rights. They are entitlements. They cost resources, either human, material, or monetary. They require other people to suffer in order for you to enjoy them. Even if the rich don't suffer much, they still are being essentially robbed in order to fund the entitlement programs you want. Since you don't have the right to take something that doesn't belong to you, the "rights" you mentioned can't possibly be rights. They can only exist in an artificial environment.
Whether or not you are right about everybody deserving health care and other entitlements is not important. What is important is that David doesn't think it's government's business to force other people to sacrifice their natural rights in favor of your entitlements. And he's right about it.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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FelchX - Bingo!
Sava,
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The question I ask you is, if the bible didn't say "Thou shall not steal" would you still think it to be wrong? |
Of course. But then again, you're the one who brought up Christianity, I was bringing the discussion to your level. Don't try to use Christianity to argue with a Christian - especially one who's mother has a master's degree in Christian studies (or whatever it's called).
Stealing is wrong because it violates natural rights. Natural rights stem from the concept of self-ownership, which you MUST agree with. If you don't agree with the concept of self-ownership, then you are basically saying that slavery is OK. Is that what you are saying?
quote:
But hoarding wealth is greed |
Who says I'm hoarding wealth? Personally, in the absence of taxes, I would give to charity. In fact, I give to the church, in spite of taxes.
But who am I to say someone who doesn't believe in the Bible should be forced to live Biblically?
quote:
I'm fairly confident that even if the christian god existed, he would probably agree that while taxation is a form of theft, it's not as bad as hoarding wealth for one's self. |
If you're talking about the Christian God, he would say that all sins are equal in His eyes. Again, don't try to argue Christianity with me.
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rah
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Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
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Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:22
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God, I love all the people that can think of no valid scenario that we might need a draft. YES< THE US IS INVINCABLE. And complacent as heck.
I firmly believe that ALL US citizens should be forced to serve 1 or two years in some type of service, either military or humanitarian. Besides providing an opportunity to earn our citizenship. It could go a long way towards ending a lot of racial bigotry. Forced service is the great equalizer. Rich man, poor man, black man, white man, hispanic, hetero, gay, whatever.
NO rich daddy exceptions. All together. Most biotry comes from ignorance. Serving together would give the chance for diverse people to interact on neutral grounds. It's hard to hate all blacks, when you have some black friends. Some might learn that it isn't the desire of every gay man to seduce them. Most of my youthful ignorance was easily dissipated once I actually started interacting with diverse people.
Just a thought. 
RAH
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
some countries, in some situations (Israel, for example) the draft is required |
You could say it is required, but all you would be saying is that if you set up an arbitrary state on someone else's land, and you and that someone else happen to hate each other, then you will be constantly fighting.
Well so what? The whole situation would have been avoided by not committing the first wrong, ie, setting up the nation in that place.
So basically, is the draft needed by Israel to maintain Israeli independence? Probably, yes. But is Israeli independence and the existence of an Israeli state in its current location a good thing? I'd say probably not. Therefore, the draft is not necessary to achieve a good end, in my opinion.
Another example is that Hitler needed the draft to fight the Russians, but that doesn't justify the draft, all it says is that he shouldn't have been fighting the Russians.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
God, I love all the people that can think of no valid scenario that we might need a draft. YES< THE US IS INVINCABLE. And complacent as heck. |
Fine. Give me an example I can relate to where we would need the draft to defend ourselves.
Only one I can think of is a magical world without ICBMs where someone uses Starfleet replicators to manufacture a massive navy and land on US soil.
And even THEN, volunteers would be sufficient to stop it.
quote:
I firmly believe that ALL US citizens should be forced to serve 1 or two years in some type of service, either military or humanitarian. |
What about people morally opposed to war?
quote:
Besides providing an opportunity to earn our citizenship. |
Where's the Constitution say anything about that? And in any case, what exactly are my taxes for, then?
quote:
It could go a long way towards ending a lot of racial bigotry. Forced service is the great equalizer. Rich man, poor man, black man, white man, hispanic, hetero, gay, whatever.
NO rich daddy exceptions. All together. Most biotry comes from ignorance. Serving together would give the chance for diverse people to interact on neutral grounds. It's hard to hate all blacks, when you have some black friends. Some might learn that it isn't the desire of every gay man to seduce them. Most of my youthful ignorance was easily dissipated once I actually started interacting with diverse people. |
You are possibly correct on that note, but I don't see how that justifies a new form of slavery.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
How about a biological attack. I'm just saying, that in the coming years how can we be so sure of ourselves. |
How would the draft protect against biological attack?
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You'll notice I did say military or humanitarian. |
Oh, OK, missed that. Well, forced military service for those who don't object to war, and forced labor for those who do. Some choice.
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Most 18 year olds haven't paid squat in taxes yet. |
I certainly did - two years worth by the time I was 18. Most of my friends did too.
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And for the constitution, that's what we'd be protecting. |
No, that's what we'd be destroying if we started down the path of forced labor, involuntary servitude, slavery, even. Pretty soon we'll start setting up gulags, right?
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Giving back to the country that has given us so much, isn't what I consider slavery. I call it duty. |
And I told you, my taxes are already giving back. And in any case, just because someone hasn't paid taxes YET doesn't mean they never will. People under 18, really people under 25, primarily go to school. Which do you think is more important, wasting 2 years of your life in the military, or going to higher education for two years?
But this is all irrelevant, because the Constitution and Bill of Rights say nothing about forcing someone to "give back to the country" or anything like that. They DO say that the right to life, liberty, and property MUST be protected by the federal government. The draft deprives a person certainly of their liberty, and possibly their life, and that means that the government would be in violation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights - the Supreme Law of the Land - and would not be acting in accordance with their proper function.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
The draft to protect during the aftermath of a biological strike. And I really don't care how viable that is, the point is, you think we're so invinceble. Every empire eventually decays. |
In the aftermath of a bio-strike, we still have the nuclear deterrant.
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I guarentee the pithens that you've paid in taxes by 18 are insignificant. |
Not to me, they certainly aren't, and I will certainly be paying plenty of taxes either. Besides, by age 18, I've been living off of my parents, not the state, so it's only appropriate (in this line of reasoning) that I haven't paid many taxes.
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But the biggest problem I see, is that you see it as forced labor. |
How is it NOT forced labor?
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You're part of the entitled generation. It makes me ill. ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME |
Since when do you see me supporting entitlement programs. Amusingly enough, the biggest "entitlement generation" seems to be that of old people. They want to mooch off of everyone with Social Security, Medicare, etc., and they generally don't give a **** who, if anyone, they hurt. ME ME ME ME ME ME that's all I hear out of old people.
But you know what ticks me off the MOST? People from ANY generation who have the attitude of "My country, right or wrong".
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Most of my generation would see it as duty, and what can I give. Not what am I owed. |
So, most of your generation would see it as their duty to submit to forced labor and slavery. The two are not exactly incompatible, mind you - in the Bible, for example, Jesus said that slaves have a duty to their masters.
And the only thing I think that I am owed is the protection of my individual liberties. And the draft has never BEEN needed, IS NOT needed, and cannot, in any conceivable circumstance, BE needed to fulfill that, which is pretty much the only function of just government.
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Tuberski
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ACK!!! PTHBBPPPTTT!!!!
Feb 2002
time: 23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
And I told you, my taxes are already giving back. And in any case, just because someone hasn't paid taxes YET doesn't mean they never will. People under 18, really people under 25, primarily go to school. Which do you think is more important, wasting 2 years of your life in the military, or going to higher education for two years?
But this is all irrelevant, because the Constitution and Bill of Rights say nothing about forcing someone to "give back to the country" or anything like that. They DO say that the right to life, liberty, and property MUST be protected by the federal government. The draft deprives a person certainly of their liberty, and possibly their life, and that means that the government would be in violation of the Constitution and Bill of Rights - the Supreme Law of the Land - and would not be acting in accordance with their proper function. |
Are you saying I wasted 5 years of my life being in the military?
Bite me.
I don't think it's a big deal myself. It's a little piece of paper that you sign at the post office. Do you think you will actually be drafted? If you don't then why worry about it?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
Are you saying I wasted 5 years of my life being in the military?
Bite me. |
No, absolutely not - if you have no problem with the military and want to volunteer, then it is no waste. Heck, I almost did ROTC.
The wasted time comes in when one has no desire to spend time in the military and have more productive things to do.
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I don't think it's a big deal myself. It's a little piece of paper that you sign at the post office. Do you think you will actually be drafted? If you don't then why worry about it? |
It's the concept - I find it highly offensive that the government should have a mechanism for keeping tabs on me in order to force me into slavery at some point.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
First, you get paid, so there goes slavery. |
See Ramo's post.
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Second, I LABORED less in the military, than any other job I have had. |
Since when does the amount of labor have anything to do with whether or not it is forced?
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30-08-2002 01:53
. He did it as a PR move. He was competing with Ted Turner in that regards.
So I guess they are now authoritarian statists 
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