30-08-2002 05:37									#91
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quote: When you get around to raising new arguements, I'll discuss them, (if I'm still around)

I made entirely new arguments - I refuted the 1919 Supreme Court decision. You haven't responded, except to say you don't really care about Constitutional issues and care more about the concept.

Well, fine. I view the concept of forcing someone to fight against their will, for what is, in America's case, most likely a foreign offensive war we shouldn't be fighting, is repugnant to me. It violates my natural, individual rights, and it violates the American Constitution.

Do you believe in the concept of self-ownership, rah? Yes or no answer.

	30-08-2002 05:38									#92
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Oh, and:

quote: You were the ones that said old people feel entitled to SS. I just stated that it wasn't entitlement since they have paid most of their life into the system. You have yet to respond to that point, because you can't.

Fine, ignore Social Security. I think it's still valid because they think they are entitled to my money just because the government wasted theirs, but whatever.

Why should they get Medicare? They certainly seem to feel entitled to it. Same with prescription drugs.

	30-08-2002 05:43									#93
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, fine. I view the concept of forcing someone to fight against their will, for what is, in America's case, most likely a foreign offensive war we shouldn't be fighting, is repugnant to me. It violates my natural, individual rights, and it violates the American Constitution.

What natural, individual rights?

What right do you naturally have?

	30-08-2002 05:45									#94
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BILL IS BACK! YAY!

	30-08-2002 05:45									#95
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Probably for the same reason people think the government should provide elementary education to all children. Or do you think that if people think that, that it's entitlement.

I don't know, we're entering the gray area, but you have succeeded drifting the arguement to a whole new subject matter.

Gotta go.

RAH

	30-08-2002 05:48									#96
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Let's start with the right of self-ownership.

If I don't own myself, then you can't possibly oppose slavery.

But slavery is wrong, because I DO own myself. That sets up property. It stands to reason that if I own myself, someone has to own the fruits of my labor. Well, since I own myself, and own my labor, then I must own the fruits of my labor.

With me so far?

I can sell the fruits of my labor, or I can contract my labor out - the wage labor system. But then the compensation part of the contract take the place of the fruits of my labor, so I must own my compensation as well.

If I own my compensation, then I have to own what I buy with my compensation, because who else could?

That sets up property rights.

But also, if I own myself, no one else has any claim over me, by definition, nor do I have any claim on anyone else. Therefore, morally, no one can impose their will on me without my consent. Hence the right to both life and liberty.

That's it in a nutshell - very basic, but hopefully understandable.

	30-08-2002 05:49									#97
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quote: Probably for the same reason people think the government should provide elementary education to all children. Or do you think that if people think that, that it's entitlement.

Public education is certainly an entitlement, and I oppose it.

	30-08-2002 05:52									#98
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But you seem to oppose entitlements from a fairly stubborn and ill-thought out basis of principle rather than realistically looking at the results of what abolishing such things would do, both to society itself and to you as an individual.

Your points are nice in theory, impractical in reality.

	30-08-2002 05:53									#99
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quote: But you seem to oppose entitlements from a fairly stubborn and ill-thought out basis of principal rather than realistically looking at the results of what abolishing such things would do, both to society itself and to you as an individual.

Funny, I don't recall mass starvation back before social welfare programs.

	30-08-2002 05:56									#100
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Funny, I don't recall mass starvation back before social welfare programs.

Perhaps because you weren't around back then?

Social welfare programs arose and were instituted with the consent of the American people as a response to the deplorable conditions suffered by people during the Great Depression. There is a reason Americans supported it, and I think you're being a little naive/idealistic to think society is able to get by fine without it. I point again to the situation I described above in NY, wherein governmental assistance the needy is absolutely, unquestionably necessary. People would die without it.

	30-08-2002 05:59									#101
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quote: Social welfare programs arose and were instituted with the consent of the American people as a response to the deplorable conditions suffered by people during the Great Depression. There is a reason Americans supported it, and I think you're being a little naive/idealistic to think society is able to get by fine without it.

During the Depression, soup kitchens - private charity - fed more people than federal programs did.

quote: People would die without it.

I doubt it. They might have to get a job doing something they really don't like, such as shoveling ****, or they might have to stoop to getting help from church, charity, or family, but that isn't really my problem.

	30-08-2002 06:12									#102
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Ditch it! A basic human right is to not be forced to murder. It is acceptable to a certain extent to make people die for their country, [b]BUT IT IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE TO MAKE PEOPLE KILL FOR THEIR COUNTRY!!!!!!!![/ b]

	30-08-2002 06:12									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov BILL IS BACK! YAY!

Yep! And with a new Chainsaw!!!!!

	30-08-2002 06:15									#104
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd During the Depression, soup kitchens - private charity - fed more people than federal programs did.

Because the Federal programs were nascent, and you can't easily measure the direct effect of soup kitchens against the less direct effect of additional income past retirement and welfare benefits

quote: I doubt it. They might have to get a job doing something they really don't like, such as shoveling ****, or they might have to stoop to getting help from church, charity, or family, but that isn't really my problem.

Here is where you're being unrealistic. It may not be your problem from a conscience standpoint, but it would turn into a BIG problem for you from a sociological standpoint. Having massive amounts of people in wretched poverty (and yes, SS and Welfare keep tens of thousands out of such conditions) wouldn't lead to any good results. The rise in crime alone would be a disaster.

	30-08-2002 09:31									#105
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Let's start with the right of self-ownership.

Oh c'mon. You start a thread way back when to defend your views on natural rights (since people are constantly questioning them), but when you can't defend your views then you abandon the thread. However, instead of revising your views on natural rights (in light of the fact that you couldn't justify them), you just pretend as though the thread had never even existed.

	30-08-2002 09:33									#106
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Ooooh I missed it! Link, loiny?

	30-08-2002 09:36									#107
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Here we go, fresh as a daisy. I don't even need to be an archivist when the database does the dirty work for me. Gotta love it.

	30-08-2002 09:38									#108
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Only 3 pages? Man, I'd thought it would be like 15-16!

	30-08-2002 09:40									#109
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Like I said, he apparently abandoned it when it wasn't going well for him...

	30-08-2002 09:42									#110
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I'm extremely proud of my contribution to that thread.

quote: I read the first 4 words. Did anybody else go farher?

	30-08-2002 09:46									#111
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For all the good that thread did, your contribution was the equivalent of mine.

	30-08-2002 17:17									#112
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But it didn't stop him from using the same ole tired argument to prove that he has the natural right to be a selfish lowlife.

Starts with, If I help the world or our own country he may die.

moves on to the constitution protects his right to be a selfish lowlife.

But argues that he's not acting entitled but
seniors that paid into SS all their lifes but by expecting a few dollars back are>

Then finishes with the government shouldn't be responsible for providing basic primary education to children.

And we wonder why the euros make fun of the US.

RAH

	30-08-2002 18:01									#113
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FYI, there was actually a reason I abandoned that thread - that was around my time my computer crashed. We can start again if you like, it's fine by me.

	30-08-2002 19:10									#114
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Okay, fine. I believe that the debate was left off with you claiming that a concept like "murder" or "theft" can exist in a societal vacuum (i.e. that if there were only one sentient being on the entire planet, and if this being never knew another sentient being in its lifetime, that said being would still have a concept of "murder" or "theft"), even though "murder" or "theft" require two sentient participants who are capable of communicating complex concepts like "righteousness," "wickedness," "ownership," etc. to one another. You've still got to come up with a thought experiment in order to explain why and how a solitary sentient being would develop a moral code if he/she were the only sentient being on the planet.

You've also still got to show why "self ownership" is not the logical equivalent of "reflexive ownership." Note that your previous argument, "well clearly reflexive ownership is irrational," just doesn't cut it.

Edit: Be warned that my posting time at 'Poly may be significantly cut in a week or two. Job interviews coming up. Finally.

Last edited by loinburger on 30-08-2002 at 19:16

	30-08-2002 22:11									#115
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Oh David, I found a perfect example in the bible where "God" says taxes are okay...

"Give unto Caesar..."

Boy I love destroying straw men. But I've got more ..

quote: If you're talking about the Christian God, he would say that all sins are equal in His eyes. Again, don't try to argue Christianity with me.

So you know God, eh? He talks to you? So you believe Christianity teaches sin to be a black and white system?

What denomination are you, BTW, I just would like to know for future reference. If you are protestant (which I assume) then you have no right to talk about what it means to be a Christian. Protestant Christianity is a joke. They change their religion at will to serve their one interests.

You might claim to be a christian, but you certainly don't know a lot about the religion and its morals.

True, I don't believe the bible. But that's only because the bible isn't meant to be believed in. It's a collection of myths and parables designed to teach morals. God gave us free-will and skepticism so that we could live our lives and figure things out on our own. That's why the commandment says "Thou shall not murder" instead of "thou shall not kill" Killing is not the same as murder. God gave us the ability to reason between the two.

Your thinking about property is also flawed my dear boy. Nobody owns anything. You are simply caring for it while it is in your presence. The only thing which is truly yours is what's inside your mind.

Seeing as you disagree with so much about the government (taxation, the draft, etc) why don't you just move? Seriously, if you don't want to contribute to government (taxes, draft eligibility) then you obviously don't deserve its protection. But that's just my opinion.