29-08-2002 22:38									#1
	Selective Service - Keep it or Ditch it? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Selective Service is basically the system in which every American male over the age of 18 must register by law. The purpose is basically to provide a potential draft pool if the draft were ever restarted.

Some people view this is a responsible precaution, yet others view this is an unnecessary invasion of privacy.

My viewpoint is that since I believe the draft is wrong, in EVERY circumstance, then a mechanism that would facilitate the draft must be wrong too, and furthermore, it is a system of the government attempting to keep tabs on the whereabouts of millions of Americans, and I disagree with that as well.

What do YOU think?

Last edited by David Floyd on 30-08-2002 at 03:40

	29-08-2002 22:56									#2
	Got spare money?

Normally I would say dump it, but since I know you hate it, keep it just to bust your balls.

	29-08-2002 23:00									#3
	Tired of ads?

It costs money and does no good. Ditch it.

	29-08-2002 23:03									#4
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quote: Normally I would say dump it, but since I know you hate it, keep it just to bust your balls.

	29-08-2002 23:04									#5
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It's only current use, as far as I can see, is for purposes of raising a militia in times of crisis. Ignoring the unlikelihood of us ever needing a militia, the state or local governments would probably be the ones raising one anyway, not the feds. Ditch it.

	29-08-2002 23:12									#6
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger ---"f u cn rd ths, u cn gt a gd jb n cmptr prgmmng."

w sh!!!

On topic : Ditch it. When they need to find you, they'll find you...

	29-08-2002 23:14									#7
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The real question is cost vs. value.

Think of it as an insurance policy. Hope we don't ever need it again. But if we do, it will save a lots of time and expense, which will be critical if we ever really need it.

	29-08-2002 23:17									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

David is just mad that he had to sign up for the draft in order to mooch of the federal government for financial aid.

	29-08-2002 23:20									#9
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quote: David is just mad that he had to sign up for the draft in order to mooch of the federal government for financial aid.

I don't receive federal financial aid. I have a couple of unsubsidized loans, and scholarships provided by UT and private sources.

rah,

quote: Think of it as an insurance policy. Hope we don't ever need it again. But if we do, it will save a lots of time and expense, which will be critical if we ever really need it.

I would maintain that we have never actually needed it to defend the nation, which should be the only purpose of any military. We might have "needed" it for offensive purposes, but offensive actions are never necessary.

So what you're saying is sounds sorta like this, to me - keep it in case we need it for something that isn't necessary.

	30-08-2002 00:09									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Scholarships are a form of welfare... most anti-welfare right wingers don't realize this.

Anyways, selective service is necessary. If there is a massive ground war, the US needs the power to send out cannon fodder. Even though I'm required by law to sign up, I didn't. I'm 22 now... another 4 years and I won't be eligible for the draft, MUHAHAHA. (I hope Ashcroft doesn't come to my house and detain me for not signing up )

	30-08-2002 00:14									#11
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quote: Scholarships are a form of welfare... most anti-welfare right wingers don't realize this.

True, but they are merit-based, and many of them are private, so it really isn't the same as welfare, now is it?

quote: Anyways, selective service is necessary. If there is a massive ground war, the US needs the power to send out cannon fodder.

Why would we need to get involved in a massive overseas ground war?

quote: Even though I'm required by law to sign up, I didn't. I'm 22 now... another 4 years and I won't be eligible for the draft, MUHAHAHA.

Hypocrite.

One thing that IS interesting is that they haven't prosecuted a case of not signing up for Selective Service since the early 1980s, because it was found that when people were prosecuted for not signing up, the percentage of people who signed up actually DECREASED.

	30-08-2002 00:38									#12
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i think it's utterly stupid. i hate the draft. i don't think we'll ever need it, and it's not like i need anything to compel me to defend my homeland from those damn canadians with their flappy heads (do they even have a military?).

but seriously, i think it's a waste of money. it's not being used, and it's just another thing to suck up money and time and personal information while giving me yet another id number for me to forget and lose.

	30-08-2002 01:09									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Why would we need to get involved in a massive overseas ground war?

Who said it would be overseas? I would think the draft would be most useful if the US were ever to be invaded.

I say the selective service is a good thing.

And just because you pass the "draft age" doesn't mean you won't be drafted if the $hit hits the fan. IIRC, Britain drafted men up to 45 or so for WWII.

The only thing about the draft that troubles me is that a declaration of war isn't required to use it. The authority to use the draft should lie with Congress, IMO.

	30-08-2002 01:11									#14
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quote: Who said it would be overseas? I would think the draft would be most useful if the US were ever to be invaded.

How likely do you think this is? About as likely as an alien invasion, perhaps?
Maybe we better start arming the space shuttle with nuclear missiles, just in case the Borg show up

quote: The only thing about the draft that troubles me is that a declaration of war isn't required to use it. The authority to use the draft should lie with Congress, IMO.

It already does, AFAIK.

	30-08-2002 01:18									#15
	Tired of ads?

actually I don't think the draft is wrong.

There's a little thing called society. And society has written and unwritten rules.

You cannot do whatever you like in society. You can't go around raping people, or killing people, or jerking off outside. Society does not allow it. We have a code we live by. And one of those codes is that the able bodied men defend the society from attack.

In all the above scenarios if you don't want to follow societies rules you have to leave and become a hermit or something.

I suggest studying moral/ethical codes of society more. They aren't written down, but you notice them when walking down the street.

	30-08-2002 01:21									#16
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but I do say to ditch it. We can scrape up a draft if we need to. Our armed forces are large enough to prevent us from being overrun in the time it will take to draft 1 million men. It's not like we have the military of 1941 now is it? We are now ahead of Portugal in military might

	30-08-2002 01:23									#17
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quote: And one of those codes is that the able bodied men defend the society from attack.

Says you, of course. And of course there is the other minor point that in no case has the draft been necessary to actually defend the US.

In the War of Northern Aggression, it was used to facilitate offensive war. In WW1, it was used for basically the same thing, and was in no way necessary to protect the shores of the USA. WW2, same story - not necessary to protect the US. There were plenty of volunteers for home defense. Korea and Vietnam are the most clear-cut cases of the draft having nothing to do with defending the US, and that at least you should agree with me on.

quote: In all the above scenarios if you don't want to follow societies rules you have to leave and become a hermit or something.

Sounds rather like saying "If you don't like Jim Crow laws, leave", or "If you don't like 100% taxes, leave". There's such a thing as an unjust law - and an unjust law is NO law.

	30-08-2002 01:27									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Other forms of welfare are merit based too, David. Being poor and not having a job opprotunity is a requirement. So is being hungry and not having a place to live. So is suffering from mental illness and being unable to function in society.

But we should just put all those people to death at birth, right David? Or at least do nothing and let them suffer. Yeah, that's the christian thing to do right.

	30-08-2002 01:30									#19
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well I won't argue about ww1, ww2 etc. Those were offensive wars.

But in your original post you said draft is wrong in every circumstance.

But I agree that draft should only be used if our shores are attacked. Although you could make a case they were attacked in ww2. But we didn't really have to fight Germany now did we? Sure they declared war on us, but they didn't have the capability of doing anything about it.

	30-08-2002 01:30									#20
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Sava is actually right here Dave, I pray that you will abandon this heartless and unchristian approach to life before it is too late.

	30-08-2002 01:33									#21
	Got spare money?

quote: Other forms of welfare are merit based too, David. Being poor and not having a job opprotunity is a requirement. So is being hungry and not having a place to live. So is suffering from mental illness and being unable to function in society.

How does a poor person merit my money any more than the local retailer does? Giving it to the local retailer will certainly help the economy more, and society in general - you should support that, seeing as how most of your arguments are based upon the good of society rather than individual rights.

quote: But we should just put all those people to death at birth, right David? Or at least do nothing and let them suffer. Yeah, that's the christian thing to do right.

That's funny, a liberal, who probably supports abortion, talking about the christian thing to do

OK, yes that was a stupid troll, but seriously...there are avenues open to them, including charity, religious organizations, family, and continuing to work - they certainly won't starve or die of exposure.

	30-08-2002 01:34									#22
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Sava is actually right here Dave,

I knew it would happen sooner or later

	30-08-2002 01:36									#23
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It doesn't merit your money. They shouldn't just get your money. But they should have access to free education, free job opprotunities, and free health care so that they can become self-sufficient. And I'm sorry, but the money has to come from somewhere. Taxing is necessary because no rich people are going to front the money to create such a system.

	30-08-2002 01:36									#24
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quote: But in your original post you said draft is wrong in every circumstance.

It is - even if the US were invaded, FORCING someone to die in defense of the US would be wrong. Granted, this is a moot point, because virtually everyone would volunteer, including the two of us, and is also moot because there is no way the US could be invaded, and is further moot because the US would use nuclear weapons rather than human wave attacks.

quote: Sure they declared war on us, but they didn't have the capability of doing anything about it.

Well, they certainly had the capability to sink our ships - read up on Operation Drumbeat.
But the point is that we did not attempt a negotiated solution, we let our diplomatic relations with them go to ****, and prior to the outbreak of war we were escorting war materials to Britain, giving war materials for free to Britain and Russia, and firing on Uboats or radioing their positions to Britain.

	30-08-2002 01:38									#25
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Forcing someone to die in the defense of the US is bad, but not as bad as everyone dying or being enslaved by a foreign aggressor.

You need to think outside the box Davey.

	30-08-2002 01:41									#26
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quote: Forcing someone to die in the defense of the US is bad, but not as bad as everyone dying or being enslaved by a foreign aggressor. You need to think outside the box Davey.

If thinking outside the box means living in Fairyland where someone actually CAN invade the US, I'll just stay right here.

quote: Taxing is necessary because no rich people are going to front the money to create such a system.

What are you talking about? Rich people give to charity all the time, as do corporations.

	30-08-2002 01:41									#27
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Merit based aid is NOT a form of welfare. It is a means that universities use in the interest of the university to get higher-talented students with better SAT stats then they would normally get so as to improve their prestige.

I think the SS is something that it is time to ditch- as I understand it a draft wouldn't be very useful in modern warfare, so it is probably just a waste of money.

	30-08-2002 01:42									#28
	Remove this text

I'm in agreement with Sava here David, moreover, as a christian you should support programs that help out those less fortunate than you to the best of your ability. You shouldn't resist them kicking and screaming. You will have to answer for your actions one day you know.

	30-08-2002 01:42									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

I just have to say its an unwritten rule of society the feds just decided to make official in the form of a draft.

As for germany of course their u-boats posed a significant threat. I think volunteers were enough to support naval manpower needs.

	30-08-2002 01:48									#30
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd If thinking outside the box means living in Fairyland where someone actually CAN invade the US, I'll just stay right here.

Maybe I'm just silly, but don't you think the reason nobody can invade us is because of the deterrence of our military? And much of that deterrence is the fact that we'll send every able-bodied man (and now women) to die in the defense of freedom? But again, maybe I'm just silly.

quote: What are you talking about? Rich people give to charity all the time, as do corporations.

Oh, I'm sorry. Can you tell me where the free school is. I'd like to finish up my under-grad and not have to pay this huge student loan. And next time I get sick, can you tell me where the free-hospital is so I'm not stuck paying thousands of dollars in medical fees?

Rich people only give enough money to make it look like they're making a difference. Don't you dare say that corporations actually care about giving money to charities. Corporations only care about profit margins and making money. Only very few people actually contribute money in goodwill rather than to improve their image.