 |
| |
|
|
XOR
|
 |
Venezuela
Aug 2002
time: 05:22
|
|
Paratroopers have 6/8/1 and a 6 distance of paradrop.
They dont attack much so they are worthless for attacking.
They dont defend much compared to the much older and cheaper infantry unit so they are not very good for defending.
They dont even paradrop much because you need to build an airport in a city to make a paradrop from it, I dont mind building airports, but there is very little combat near my airport cities, or even my border cities, and when there is a lot of combat there, it's 3 turns away from totally moving the border so far that paratroopers cant reach it and not every city I capture has an airport.
Additionally, the helicopter can "drop" any infantry unit at the same range, from cities that do not have airport. By the time you research advanced flight (IF you do it) you have plenty of normal, cheaper infantry (those called "Infantry") with 6/10/1 to drop with the helicopters. More than that, you can "airlift" infantry from any city to any other city using helicopters, something that paratroopers dont do. There does not seem to be a single advantage in using paratroopers instead of droping normal infantry with helicopters.
It also doesnt jump very far either, 6 tiles away is barely enough to jump from one city to the next most of the time. Civ2 paratroopers could drop really far, I think it was 10 tiles, which was much better.
Seriously, the Civ2 paratrooper was much superior. I remember it could paradrop from any city, it could still move the same turn after having droped and it defended better than riflemen.
So, tell me, Paratroopers in Civ3 totally suck or is it just me?
Last edited by XOR on 30-08-2002 at 20:19
|
|
| |
|
|
|
eklektikos
|
|
At my desk, wasting time.
Jul 2002
time: 05:22
|
|
Well, I'm not sure if I'm entirely qualified to comment because I've never bothered to build them. Then again, that says something in itself, considering that paradrop units were a fundamental element of my Civ2 & SMAC invasion strategies.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
jdw22
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by XOR
Additionally, you can sell your oil to someone and be able to produce the cheaper infantry for 20 turns. |
Not really, as you can only sell your excess oil, not all of it.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
eklektikos
|
|
At my desk, wasting time.
Jul 2002
time: 05:22
|
|
@jdw22 ~ You can sell every last drop of your oil if you so wish. You just can't convince the AI to sell you any resource/luxury that it has but one of.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
XOR
|
|
Venezuela
Aug 2002
time: 05:22
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by jdw22
Not really, as you can only sell your excess oil, not all of it. |
Yes, you can sell all your last oil until you have run out of oil for yourself and cannot build planes, helicopters, paratroopers or mechanized units for 20 turns. I have done it. If you cant find an AI that has no oil you can still pillage the thing for a while.
That enables you to build standard Infantry (which, shouldn't become obsolete nor be upgradeable to a mechanized mobile unit that isn't helitransportable, but such is life) and I know it because I have done that. It also comes that you can research adv flight before that computers so you can for some time use Infantry and finally, I dont upgrade all of my infantry for that reason and that reason alone, so it is still possible to have infantry and helicopters.
After that, normal infantry can be put in helicopters and paradroped the same range as paratroopers. They are cheaper, they are stronger and (most important) they dont need airports. The only downside of using helicopters (and I know because I have seen it happen) is that helicopters can be intercepted by fighters while I havent seen a paratrooper airdrop be intercepted by fighters (realismwise, fighters should be able to intercept them).
And I still have these 61 paratroopers (according to military advisor screen) that wont attack, or defend, or jump, they just sit fortreses on top of strategic resources "looking good" and do a really neat paradrop animation when I send them to a city and paradrop them back into the same tile of the same city (excercises?).
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
hr_oskar
|
|
I think in terms of realism the Civ3 Paratrooper isn't all that far off - in real life mass paratrooping has been considered obsolete since WWII, or so my sources on military history tell. Infantry needs a lot of support in modern warfare and it's apparently too hard to supply that support to whole divisions that have para-dropped behind enemy lines.
Of course, that doesn't have to mean they should suck in the game. I might mod them up a little bit myself, but probably not much. I like to have them as curious little units that demand creativity from the player, instead of the bruteness of the MA.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
XOR
|
|
Venezuela
Aug 2002
time: 05:22
|
|
I read it and it doesnt sound very successful. The airdrop target has to be 6 tiles away from your airport, that's not much for a stampede of tanks (with the cost of 4 helicopters + 8 paratroopers + some few tanks you surely already had = that can make 30 tanks pretty easy). Additionally, you used helicopters, which means you could have just used infantry instead.
For pillage purposes, mind you, bombers outperform paratroopers even if there are fighters in the region. Same goes for Infantry loaded helicopters.
Dont get me wrong, I really like paratroopers (specially Civ2's), it's just that I'd like to be able to use their unique abilities for something else than just watching the airdrop animation.
Does anyone know how to change it so that they jump from any city (not just airports) and jump a distance of 9 (instead of just 6)?
Last edited by XOR on 31-08-2002 at 12:43
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Unregistered
|
|
I've used both Paras & Marines before in civ3 w/ very good results. In fact, I'd have to say that they are actually pretty good models of real Paras & Marines. Both have very specific roles that they fill on the battlefield. And when they are actually working within those roles - establishing a beachhead or airhead - they are performing as "light infantry". Which means they have extremely limited supplies of ammo and basically *no* heavy weapons. (That last part is really important to understand, it is what drives the lower defense & attack values for them) They only have the weapons that they can carry into battle, either on the jump or slogging thru the surf. This means small arms, with a sprinkling of light mortars & maybe some light anti-tank weapons, a few satchel charges & the like. Not many tho. A light mortar, say a 60mm, will be broken down into two pieces, a base-plate & a tube and two guys will split those & carry them. A third guy (& a fourth & a fifth & a sixth too!) will carry a couple of mortar rounds each. So you not only have to hump it into combat, but you must also assemble it when you get there. Which can be a problem if the guy w/ the base-plate is 200 yards behind you, floating face-down in the surf. Paras & Marines depend on close support aircraft & naval guns for heavy weapons. Their main job (in the Para or Marine mode) is to take and secure an area long enough (which *should* mean hours, 4-8 at the most, not days) for the heavy infantry - preferably w/ some armored support - to arrive and link up w/ them. Any time this model isn't followed leads to heavy casualties for the Marines or Paras. Read about the drops @ Market-Garden or Crete in WWII or the abortive Cuban invasion in the early sixties and you will see what I mean.
I think most of the confusion here comes from the fact that Marines & Paras are very rarely actually used in their battlefield specialty roles in real life. Much of the time they actually are used on the battlefield as elite heavy infantry, with all that entails; divisional/regimental/company artillery and heavy weapons squads along w/ (usually anyway) close armor support and APC's. Since they typically have more training and a higher esprit de corps they generally are tougher than your "average" heavy infantry, which leads to the expectation that they will be better than the generic infantry offered by the game. Unfortunately the game doesn't have the ability to portray a unit with two different sets of attack/defend values with the built in game logic to determine when which set of values would apply, so you get the specialty unit w/o the ability to function in a heavy infantry role. Which, in game terms, is ok, given all the other constraints that drive game development today.
I'd agree that the paradrop range leaves a bit to be desired, but even that isn't too bad. Paras aren't typically dropped too far ahead of the front lines, since you should be expecting to link up w/ them shortly after their drop so that they don't become roadkill. I do miss airfields though, and I am looking forward to having them again in ptw. I have to also note that the successful use of Paras irl depends pretty heavily on the element of surprise so that they can linked up with before the enemy can respond and wipe them out. In a tbs game, that means that you need to get to them w/ your tanks/MA and/or inf/MI on that *same* turn or they *will* be roadkill.
Cheers,
|
|
| |
|
|
|
bbaws
|
|
Paratroops are good for managing choke points, once used them against the Indians. Stacks of 6 or so on every square around their capital on the first turn of war. Bam all their trade agreements lapsed and four border cities flipped to me without a shot fired. I could have done it with helicopters but I had to use them for something just to enjoy that glorious animation.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:22.
Apolyton Time is 00:22. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
30-08-2002 19:58
even in your own territory.
|