31-08-2002 16:47									#1
	$Mini-Game Trading Session 4 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Turn 4 closes EXACTLY 72 hours from the post time of this message.

Use this thread for trade proposals only. So, NO DEBATES HERE (except relating to current session rules questions)

For rules, a directory of threads and debates see the thread Main thread and directory

Current Market Assessment:

Turn Number: 4
In Game year: 210 BC
"Market One": Apolyton, Termina, Tassagrad, BHQ, Port Rouge

Total population: 4+4+3+3+2=16

Labor Market
Apolyton Available Labor: 4
Termina Available Labor: 3
Tassagrad Available Labor: 3
BHQ Available Labor: 4
Port Rouge Available Labor: 2
(The Labor market is now done on a per city basis. Simply state in the following format, "Hire 1 Labor in Apolyton @ $26 (D:S 1/4 = $25)". To use Vassal labor simply state "Use 1 of my Vassals on my estate.")

Vassals for Auction:
1 German
3 French
4 Persian
(To bid for a vassal simply state the following proposed transaction: "I wish to bid $20 each for 2 French Vassals". Unless not enough bids are received, all vassals will be sold to the highest bidders. Transfer of ownership takes place at end of session. Newly acquired vassals have been fed for this session by the state, and may commence work during the next trading session.

Commodity Markets
Food demand: 16x2=32
Food supplied: 2+2+2+2+2= 10
D:S = 32/10 = $320

Shield Demand: 9+4+4+4+1=22
Shield Supply: 9+5+4+4+1=23
D:S = 22/23 = $95

NOTE BASE RATE FOR COMMERCE IS $50
So multiply D:S by 50% for current market price.
Commerce Demand: 16x3=48
Commerce Supplied: 3+2+1+1+1=8
D:S = 48/8 x.50= $300

Use the format provided in the rules to post your proposals.

Check the LATEST trade post for the most current default price (D:S). If you are suspicious of an error, check the previous post and make sure they added properly.


THIS SESSION USES THE FOLLOWING RULES:
Each noble has 1 base Labor representing common vassals. Vassals consume 1 food for every 2 vassals. Odd numbered vassals do not consume any extra food as the vassals simply have to make do with less food. (Examples: 1 vassal consumes no food, 2 vassals consume 1 food, 3 vassals consume 1 food, etc.)


The following Buildings are available for construction:

STOREHOUSE {Can be built on Noble's Estate OR in a city} (Costs 2 shields/labor) stores up to 20 commodities (including food). NOTE: you may store up to 10 nonfood items(shields/commerce) in addition to/instead of this 20 storage.

TAVERN {city only} (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell food at a 50% bonus. The number of food you may sell at that bonus is equal to the the city Pop of the city the workshop is located in. (Example: the building is located in Apolyton whose Pop is 4. The bonus applies to 4 units of the product.)

SHOPPE {city only} (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell commerce at a 50% bonus. The number of commerce you may sell at that bonus is equal to the the city Pop of the city the workshop is located in. (Example: the building is located in Apolyton whose Pop is 4. The bonus applies to 4 units of the product.)

WORKSHOP {city only} (Costs 4 shields/labor) allows you to sell shields at a 50% bonus. The number of shields you may sell at that bonus is equal to the the city Pop of the city the workshop is located in. (Example: the building is located in Apolyton whose Pop is 4. The bonus applies to 4 units of the product.)


To build a building in a city you must hire at least one labor from that city. Additional labor may be brought in from any noble's estate, but the first labor must be from the city or local authorities will not allow any construction on your building to take place.

The only building that will be "useable" the turn its built is Storehouse. All others technically use the turn to alter/sell products and should be in existence at the beginning of the turn to generate benefits.

CONSTRUCTION STATUS (From close of Session 3)
Epistax has built 2 of ? on a building in a city/estate.
Franses has built 4 of ? on a building in a city/estate.
GhengisFarb has built 3 of ? on a building in a city/estate.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 01-09-2002 at 00:43

	31-08-2002 17:41									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

code:

Epistan Plantation, Turn 4.  Admin: Epistax
Holdings: 
     Tile 009, N Termina, 1/0/1
     Tile 012, NW Termina, 1/0/0
Buildings:
     Tavern @ Termina (2+1/3 Complete)
Stockpile: 0+0 food    0+1-1 shields    0+0 commerce
Production:  2 food      0 shields      1 commerce
Cash Change: -$64
     112     Selling
     -176    Buying
Current Cash: $169      Debt: -$750 (Interest @ turn 15)
Selling:
     2 Food  @ $40/ea
     1 Comm  @ $35/ea
Buying:
     1 Shld  @ $60/ea
     1 Labr From Termina @ $33/ea
New D/S:
     Food: 32/10+2    = $267
     Shld: 22+1/23    = $100
     Comm: 48/8+1    = $533
     Termina Labor Labr: 0+1/3 = $33
Predicted Expenses|Income: 93|115 = $22

	31-08-2002 18:52									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

code:
Skywalker Corporation, Turn 4.  Admin: Skywalker
Holdings: 
     Tile 019, S Tassagrad, 2/1/1
Buildings:
     None
Stockpile: 0+0 food    0+1 shields    0+0 commerce
Production:  2 food      1 shields      1 commerce
Cash Change: $0
     0    Selling
     0    Buying
Current Cash: $0      Debt: -$1000 (Interest @ turn 18)
Selling:
     2 Food  @ D:S
     1 Comm  @ D:S
     1 Labor @ $20 (NOT the labor point - just use it for a turn)
     4 Shares @ $100
Buying:
     Nothing
New D/S:
     Food: 32/12+2    = $228
     Shld: 23+0/23    = $100
     Comm: 48/9+1    = $533
     Termina Labor: 1/3+1 = $25

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 31-08-2002 at 21:41

	31-08-2002 20:17									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Skywalker Corporation, Turn 1. Admin: Skywalker Holdings: Tile 019 Tassagrad S (grass rd, mine) Buildings: None Stockpile: 0+0 food 0+1 shields 0+0 commerce Production: 2 food 1 shields 1 commerce Cash Change: $0 0 Selling 0 Buying Current Cash: $0 Debt: -$1000 (Interest @ turn 18)

Just corrected some technicalities.

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Selling: 2 Food @ D:S 1 Comm @ D:S

If you "sell @ D:S" the government takes out the greater of a $5 or 10% fee PER COMMODITY (That's $10 or 10% of sale price for two food) as a fee. That way those who actively try to guess the ending price have a chance to make a little more.

quote: Originally posted by skywalker Selling: 1 Labor @ $50 (NOT the labor point - just use it for a turn)

Are you offering your Vassal labor from your estate for someone else to use?

quote: Originally posted by skywalker 4 Shares @ $100 Buying: Nothing New D/S: Food: 32/12+2 = $228 Shld: 23+0/23 = $100 Comm: 48/9+1 = $533 Termina Labor Labr: 1+1/3 = $66 Let me explain the Shares thing. I've created Skywalker Corporation, and there are currently 10 shares valued at $100 (as my total worth is $1000). If you buy 1 share, you'll get 10% of all profits each turn (the turn after you buy the share). It's simple. Also, I'd like to hire someone to administer my assets in the future, as I'll soon be gone way too much to participate in trading sessions. To qualify, you must be able to access most or all of the trading sessions near the end, so you can get the best price for my goods. Every Sunday (except this one), which is the only day I'll really be able to get on, I'll want a report on my money and holdings, the general state of the market, some specific things that people have done, etc. In return for your services, you will receive 15% of all profits each turn, BEFORE stock.

I don't have a problem with the shares thing, but we haven't developed the Corporation yet so I don't know if we should play with it.

Are you trying to hire labor from Termina? You added +1 to the demand.

	31-08-2002 20:33									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

NOTICE: In the watered down offer that the players agreed to use for this trading session I forgot to add a note that the Commerce Market would use a Base Rate of $50 instead of $100. Since no one agreed to the $50 Base Rate, I used the $100 Base Rate for this session. With the addition of Port Rouge to the Region that means Commerce Demand is 48, and Commerce supply INCLUDING stockpiles and city tiles is 45(37+8) = $106 (with base rate 50 it would have been $53) I need players input as to whether we should play with the intended $50 BR now, or drop it to 50 in later trading sessions (next session we go back to the old commerce supply/demand).

Currently if you set your price to $106 there is no way to not sell your commerce, if the Base Rate drops to $50 the cut off price will be $53.


Remember, that while you would get to sell your commerce at $106, so would I. And I didn't sell commerce last turn as I was 'holding back' my supply to keep from driving the price to $20 or less.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 31-08-2002 at 20:44

	31-08-2002 21:00									#6
	Suffering from ads?

Would knowledge of where labourers will work in the future be of any use to anyone.

	31-08-2002 21:20									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by OPD Would knowledge of where labourers will work in the future be of any use to anyone.

At this point, everyone already owns the tiles so it really wouldn't influence much.

Now being able to affect WHICH tiles got worked would have a major effect on the players, as players would want the tiles they own to be improved so they could produce more..........

(wonders what it would take to get BHQ's mountain mined and roaded)

	31-08-2002 21:40									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

GhengisFarb -

Thanks for pointing out the mistakes. I'm leaving it at D:S for now, and I'm going to change it later. In case you didn't notice, I just copied Epistax's post and changed a few things. Yes, I am selling the use of that vassal for one turn, as I can't use him right now.

	31-08-2002 21:40									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Is there a sudden new commerce demand not met with supply that I have not heard of? Grr this is still confuseing-- there should be almost no increased D/S ratio, as with the new cities with more demand, game new squares being worked on by the city satisfying the demand.

Again, this thread has already gone to hell, so I see no reason not to post this.

	31-08-2002 21:42									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

Epistax - will you buy your laborer from me instead of Termina? You'll pay $13 less.

	31-08-2002 22:03									#11
	Got spare money?

code:
Banana Pastures , Turn 4.  Admin: Nimitiz
Holdings: 
     Tile 031, NW Banana HQ, 2/1/2
Buildings:
     None
Stockpile: 0+0 food    0+0 shields    0+0 commerce
Production:  2 food      1 shields      2 commerce
Cash Change: $0
     0    Selling
     0    Buying
Current Cash: $0      Debt: -$1500 (Interest @ turn 18)
Selling:
     2 Food  @ $190 each
     2 Comm  @ 390 each
     1 shield @ 85 each
Buying:
     Nothing
New D/S:
     Food: 32/12+4    = $200
     Shld: 23+0/23+1    = $95
     Comm: 48/9+3    = $400

Last edited by Nimitz on 31-08-2002 at 23:02

	31-08-2002 22:12									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Epistax Is there a sudden new commerce demand not met with supply that I have not heard of? Grr this is still confuseing-- there should be almost no increased D/S ratio, as with the new cities with more demand, game new squares being worked on by the city satisfying the demand. Again, this thread has already gone to hell, so I see no reason not to post this.

We changed the source of the numbers for the commerce ratio. Currently we produce less than they demand. As more players join we'll produce more than they demand. When the cities grow larger we'll produce less again. (I was pointing out the current excess demand so you could change your price)

The important thing is the source numbers are accurate supply/demand numbers for commerce and will ALWAYS work. The old numbers were going to require us to change the ratio every 10-20 turns because they weren't really demand/supply numbers for commerce.

Sometimes we'll have excess, sometimes we won't. if you store your commerce during the excess turns you can sell them for more money during the high demand turns. This is a high demand turn.

	31-08-2002 22:50									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

code:
The Shiek Estate 
Turn #: 004 
Holdings: 018 Tassagrad SE (jungle) and 021 Tassagrad W (jungle)

Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce 
Cash: $0 
Debt: -$400 (10% interest, 12 turns remaining on grace period) 
Buildings: none 

Administered by: GhengisFarb 

Last turn's completed trades: 
None 
Net cash flow = $0 
--- 
Production this turn: 2 food
--- 

Proposed Deals: 

Sell 2 food @ $76 (D:S 32/18 (16+2)=$177) 
Loan Vassal to GhengisFarb
Pay GhengisFarb $15

	31-08-2002 23:18									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

How's This?

code:

Epistan Plantation, Turn 4.  Admin: Epistax
+Update+
Selling:
     2 Food  @ $70/ea
     1 Comm  @ $50/ea
Buying:
     1 Shld  @ $60/ea
     1 Labr From Termina @ $33/ea
New D/S:
     Food: 32/18 (100)    = $178
     Shld: 23/24 (100)    = $96
     Comm: 48/12 (50)     = $200
     Termina Labor Labr: 1/3 = $33

	31-08-2002 23:18									#15
	Put an end to popups!

We aloud change our offers right the the price we sell things at like shields?

	31-08-2002 23:25									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

code:
Banana Pastures , Turn 4.  Admin: Nimitiz
Holdings: 
     Tile 031, NW Banana HQ, 2/1/2
-Update-
Selling:
     2 Food  @ $170 each
     2 Comm  @ 190 each
     1 shield @ 85 each
Buying:
     Nothing
New D/S:
     Food: 32/18    = $177
     Shld: 23+0/24    = $95
     Comm: 48/12   = $200

	31-08-2002 23:27									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Could everyone do me a favor and state whether they want commerce to have $50 or $100 Base Rate for this session.

-Thanks.

	31-08-2002 23:29									#18
	Tired of ads?

Yes, Nimitz, you can edit your post as much as you want until he session is over.

	31-08-2002 23:29									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

$100

	31-08-2002 23:48									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sky, you do realize that will make some people emmensely rich, and not effect others?
It doesn't make sense to suddenly increase the value of something one turn, then decrease the next.

	31-08-2002 23:53									#21
	Got spare money?

$50

	31-08-2002 23:59									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

But... I'm not voting to increase it. I'm voting to keep it the same. YOU are voting to change it.

Oh, and Epistax, what about my labor proposal (look up a few). Will you take it?

	01-09-2002 00:09									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Sky, the rules have changed for supply and demand. If we lower it to $50 base, then commerce will sell a bit higher than last turn. If we keep it at $100, it will sell double that.


I'm not sure what the rules are for laborers. I know we each come with our own, but they can't work without a bought laborer. I'd need GF to confirm this.

	01-09-2002 00:21									#24
	Put an end to popups!

Ghegis: How much Cash do I have laying around?

	01-09-2002 00:31									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Epistax - well, then, it's simple. Do I want to sell my commerce for some amount, or for twice that amount? Obviously, twice that amount.

About the laborer, the rule is that for a building that's built in a city, the first labor point must come from the city. You've already done that, so you can use my labor point. I'm just leasing the use of my laborers.

	01-09-2002 00:33									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Sky, I only need ONE labor point to finish the building. I don't need yours.


You would really compromise the idea that this game is supposed to be a realistic interpretation of an economy just to earn more money in one turn? You're now an ass.

	01-09-2002 00:38									#27
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Epistax Sky, the rules have changed for supply and demand. If we lower it to $50 base, then commerce will sell a bit higher than last turn. If we keep it at $100, it will sell double that. I'm not sure what the rules are for laborers. I know we each come with our own, but they can't work without a bought laborer. I'd need GF to confirm this.

They can't work in a city unless you use at least one from that city.

(Think Medieval Europe and free cities, the townspeople and laborers are Freemen and the noble owned labor are vassals. The city council won't let you build holdings in the city unless you pay locals to help.)

Now on your estate you're free to use all noble labor. Say if Epistax bought two shields he could put that vassal to work on a storehouse and would only have to pay for the shield. The vassals do whatever the lord (Epistax) tells them to do.

JUST TO KEEP EVERYTHING FAIR ASSUME THE BASE RATE FOR COMMERCE IS $50.

No one's going to lose any money, and it would prevent some people from paying off their loans in one turn, that seems a bit much (I'm sitting on a lot of commerce).

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Ghegis: How much Cash do I have laying around?

$125, my payment from last turn.

	01-09-2002 00:43									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It's no more realistic to make the value less than it is to keep it the same. Therefore, I'll choose what I think is best.

Anyway, Epistax, I know that you don't need mine. However, mine costs less. Therefore, why don't you buy it instead?

	01-09-2002 00:46									#29
	Remove this text

sky you're not listening: THEY WILL SELL FOR MORE THIS TURN WITH 50.
if you make it 100, then it will sell double the more, blowing it way out of proportion.

Example:
Last turn, 25.
This turn (50): 35
This turn (100): 70.

See the difference? (totally made up numbers).

grrr

	01-09-2002 00:47									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by skywalker It's no more realistic to make the value less than it is to keep it the same. Therefore, I'll choose what I think is best. Anyway, Epistax, I know that you don't need mine. However, mine costs less. Therefore, why don't you buy it instead?

I went with the $50 side, because I currently hold one third of the economy's commerce. I haven't sold any the whole game, I was trying to keep the market afloat. It didn't seem fair to be able to unload it at almost 4 times the price others were paid last turn.