18-09-2002 21:21									#61
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I will agree that adding terraforming to the game would be far easier than adding new terrain types.

	18-09-2002 23:29									#62
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They could easily make terraforming an option in the editor. I would probably never use it though. What I would really like to see is a reworked global warming feature, so that coastal regions turn into marsh or something. Now that would be spectacular! The random desertification is just too... well, random.

	19-09-2002 01:38									#63
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I would rather it be less random and more "concentrated" around the ares that are already dry. Make the deserts grow rather than have random tiles change.

	20-09-2002 02:44									#64
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hi ,

yes terraforming should be in !

have a nice day

	29-09-2002 04:42									#65
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Hi all,
Additional landscape types would make the maps look better but the whole engine of how the map is drawn would have to be redesigned as each tile has borders with other tiles. The way forward would be to produce edge graphics where-by each tile has an x (probably 3-5) pixel blank border. You then produce thin strips of graphics to overlay between each terrain type. e.g. forest to hill, forest to mountain etc. All the base tiles are then the same and only have one graphic for each landscape. The small edge graphics have to be produced but will be much easier to process.

The job done for coastlines is great. All indented and natural looking. This could be done for all landscape type borders, no more squares on the map.

For each type of landscape several graphics could then be produced so that a hill surrounded by hills looks different to hills bordering plains and a mountain by the coast could have sea-cliffs while inland it has crags and stuff like that.

The roads look ugly covering the whole map, perhaps these could be refined so that between cities there are wide roads as on the maps now and other squares could have a thin road graphic.

A little bit of thought could refine the graphical look of the game so that it looks more realistic overall.

I would add a coastal swamp that could be terraformed into land as the Dutch nation has done.

Many nations were covered with lakes and swamps before they were filled in or drained even in ancient times. So I would also introduce the fresh-water swamp and small lakes landscape that would be terraformed.

I disagree with a previous point that removal and addition of forests is not terraforming as it changes the basic properties of the land so that when a forest is chopped down the land beneath should change to river plain, plains, grassland, etc.

Hills and mountains should have many more forests and jungles than now in the early game as this is reality. Movement should be more difficult and they should take longer to clear than plains forests or jungles.

Also hills and mountains of extreme north and south should have added snow.

Other terraforming or changing the base land-scape is not valid. Man has never done any such thing. He has added water in a very few arid areas and granted removed a mountain of stone here and there. But nothing else. Terraforming in this type of game only means that the player wants to turn everything into a green and fertile plain to out-do the AI and give another human player advantage - this dilutes the game-play. No atmosphere/choices on a one-hundred square patch of green with 6 cities.

All of which brings another point up which is the rampant irrigation in this game. Its use should be restricted to within one square of the original water source. I have seen entire thirty square islands irrigated from two squares of river - It just doesn't happen.

Anyway in conclusion.
Yes to some terraforming as above but not rampant of every landscape.
Yes to new landscape types - Fresh and Salt Swamps, Reefs offshore, Snowy mountains and hills.
Yes to a better way of allowing more landscape types and a more polished look to the whole landscape graphics.

Regards
Sun_Tzu

	30-09-2002 01:43									#66
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hi ,

Except for Mediterrainian/Thorn Scrub
All these terrains are already in Call to Power 2

have a nice day

	30-09-2002 02:07									#67
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quote: Originally posted by SMIFFGIG Except for Mediterrainian/Thorn Scrub All these terrains are already in Call to Power 2

Making many terrains/units for CTP2 isn't a big deal. CTP2 IS ugly as HELL.

	30-09-2002 02:16									#68
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quote: Making many terrains/units for CTP2 isn't a big deal

haha,
you obviously dont know what the heck your talking about.

Making units for ctp (basically creating a sprite using 3d software like Lightwave 3d) hmm, wouldnt exactly say that wasnt a big deal

and creating terrain in which needs tile boarders to fit in with every other kind of terrain in the game and also needing its own terrain rules. There are no mods with new terrains because this is so hard

quote: CTP2 IS ugly as HELL

A matter of opinion, although in most peoples opinions including mine ctp2's graphics are much better. Furthermore they are 16bit graphics where as Civ3 is 8bit.


I just hate it went ppl post things and dont know what there talking about

	30-09-2002 02:27									#69
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we need swamps, us northern Minnesotans are feeling left out without the sloughs (reedy ponds) visible on the map . But, then again, the mosquitoes are horrible up here (West Nile anyone?) .

	30-09-2002 11:55									#70
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quote: Originally posted by SMIFFGIG haha, you obviously dont know what the heck your talking about. Making units for ctp (basically creating a sprite using 3d software like Lightwave 3d) hmm, wouldnt exactly say that wasnt a big deal and creating terrain in which needs tile boarders to fit in with every other kind of terrain in the game and also needing its own terrain rules. There are no mods with new terrains because this is so hard A matter of opinion, although in most peoples opinions including mine ctp2's graphics are much better. Furthermore they are 16bit graphics where as Civ3 is 8bit. I just hate it went ppl post things and dont know what there talking about

I have a friend who works with lightwave 3D (among other programs). He can make a CTP2 quality unit over a night. With Civ 3 it's much harder. There is a lot more realism involved in how the units look. (But he hates coputer games, what a wasted talent. )

I forgot about the terrain borders, guess you're right.

But i still believe CTP2 is ugly. I quit playing it because i couldn't stand it's uglyness (still, this is a matter of opinion).

	30-09-2002 16:18									#71
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quote: Originally posted by sun_tzu_159 but the whole engine of how the map is drawn would have to be redesigned as each tile has borders with other tiles. . . . The job done for coastlines is great. All indented and natural looking. This could be done for all landscape type borders, no more squares on the map.

Actually, you could do this now without any change to the engine. It just take a lot of work.

	02-10-2002 04:22									#72
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Warpstorm,
You missed my point.
If you put narrow strips in between each tile then you need only have a file for this and for each terrain you can then easily have many varied tiles to make the on-screen experience much more varied. The way the tiles are drawn would have to be modified, and you would only have to have 1,920? different edge strips for unrestricted tile placement - any bordering any - and a minimum of 16 tile graphics.
If you do not do this for sixteen terrain types each tile can border up to 15 different terrains on each of 4 sides. Can anyone work out how many tile graphics that is?
Regards
Sun_Tzu

	02-10-2002 04:49									#73
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This is essentially how it's done now. What you see as a grass tile is actually a really big transition (a 64 pixel wide strip if you will) where 4 grass to something else transitions join. There is no grass tile per se.

The other problem with your thin strip suggestion is that it's real easy to see the repetitive strips. To do it right you would need many variations on each thin strip.

Have you looked at the current terrain files? I have. I've redone nearly all of them.

	03-10-2002 09:06									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Odin we need swamps, us northern Minnesotans are feeling left out without the sloughs (reedy ponds) visible on the map . But, then again, the mosquitoes are horrible up here (West Nile anyone?) .

flood plain could be said like a swampy region. But yes I miss the wonderful swamps from Civ I

	03-10-2002 17:28									#75
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I know, I've gone on about the difficulty of working with the current graphics files. Even so, I'd like to see swamps and desert hills.

	03-10-2002 21:11									#76
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sand dunes... that would be cool... Hey how bout finding oil in ocen squares? tho it would be preety hard to build a city out there... sea colony? SMAC had a sea worker..

	05-10-2002 01:15									#77
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Warpstorm,
Keep up the good work on CIVIII. I don't like to mess with the graphics files in CIVIII - it isn't my area of expertise. I do a very small bit of modification on the CTP2 text and SLIC files to make the game more what I want.

StatusPerfect why don't you ask your friend to make a unit for CTP2, not an ugly one of course. It has to look realistic, viewed from eight angles, twitch animations, movement animations, realistic shadows, and be useful for the game. With a full implementation code to integrate it with the rest of the games units and describe its attributes within the game. This is not an 'overnight' job. Please post it when it is done and working in the program properly!!!

CalcII I have seen suggestions for sand-dunes somewhere before, these could be animated for effect, also the sea could be animated, also borrowed from somewhere else but it would look good if done properly.

To make sea colonies to drill for oil you need a 'supply vessel' unit that is settler class. This could expand easily so that only the 'supply vessel' can see the oil making an interesting sea exploration for the modern era. Natural Gas prospecting could also be dome this way with the chance of explosion destroying the supply vessel. It would also be an interesting defensive problem to protect the drilling rigs and pipelines. Also you could have underground water as a valuable resource in the modern era - it has to be under the tile for workers to exploit it after electricity.

Anyway I think the game does need more terrain types
1) to improve the look on the screen
2) to make the maps look even more like the real world. There is certainly nothing wrong with the way the base maps are generated even if the resource distribution is a bit strange.

Regards
Sun_Tzu

	05-10-2002 01:18									#78
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CalcII,
SMAC does not have sea Worker, it has a settler unit that can establish sea cities.

Regards
Sun_Tzu

	05-10-2002 01:32									#79
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sun_tzu_159> i was talking about the graphics only. you don't have to make it from eight angles. you make it in a 3D program and then get shots of it from allt the angles. textures are not necessary as you model it in one-color pieces and lighting will the 3d program take care of. and you only hve to make it as detailed as a "quake grunt" or less because it will be so small on-screen anyway. and once you have a base human body to work with you can change weapon/clothes/etc. to make another one. (and for the rules/stats/etc. part... that takes only ten minutes for games shipped with decent editors)

and of course I'm not taking into account time for research, inspiration and finishing touches

and no offense to all of you who do units for games pixel-by-pixel. i repect what you do and admire your work

Last edited by statusperfect on 05-10-2002 at 01:41

	05-10-2002 01:34									#80
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BTW. since when did CTP2 units look realistic?

	05-10-2002 01:41									#81
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StatusPerfect,

Help is wanted for CTP2 units art. If you know people who are good at this sort of thing get them involved.

With all due respect I would say that the more detailed you can get the unit the better it looks. If that takes some pixel by pixel cleaning then that is the effort that people who care will put in.

Help is also wanted in using the CIVIII landscape tiles as in this thread. Again it would be useful if you could get people involved rather than sitting having a go at people who are putting the effort in.

Regards
Sun_Tzu

	05-10-2002 01:48									#82
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Originally posted by sun_tzu_159

quote: SMAC does not have sea Worker

It does, its called Sea Transformer. An update to the normal Transformer (equivilent worker)

Originally posted by sun_tzu_159

quote: This is not an 'overnight' job

Im glad you understand the work that is need to create a CtP2 units sun_tzu

Originally posted by statusperfect

quote: With Civ 3 it's much harder. There is a lot more realism involved in how the units look

What an absolutely stupid thing to say, alot more realism involved and this makes them "much harder" to make. So this is from first hand experiance or just made up rubbish hmm

Originally posted by statusperfect

quote: detailed as a "quake grunt" or less

You really dont know what your talking about do you. I didnt know quake grunt units where 16bit. And CtP units could be made up of several pixels and still look good. I take it civ3 units could be as detailed as pong graphics then and still look good as there only 8bit??????????

Originally posted by statusperfect

quote: since when did CTP2 units look realistic?

hahaha, the same time you could use graphics as good as quakes to make them.

Originally posted by statusperfect

quote: i repect what you do and admire your work

You respect them as much to say they could be made over night.
SIMPLY: NO they CANNOT be made over night (quake grunts maybe could but were talking about ctp2 here)

Originally posted by statusperfect

quote: and once you have a base human body to work with you can change weapon/clothes/etc. to make another one

Ok and since when did the units in call to power 2, all use the same model??? WTF are you talking about. Of course you could do this.......IF you wanted the same unit for everything only wearing different clothes???

Originally posted by statusperfect

quote: and for the rules/stats/etc. part... that takes only ten minutes for games shipped with decent editors

Ok, but CtP2 doesnt have an editor for making unit rules, so once again what are you talking about??


On a more serious note statusperfect, why do you insist on posting to back up your points when none of your points are valid. You really are talking total rubbish (& thats the only word I could use without getting kicked off the forum).

	05-10-2002 09:50									#83
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quote: Originally posted by SMIFFGIG What an absolutely stupid thing to say, alot more realism involved and this makes them "much harder" to make. So this is from first hand experiance or just made up rubbish hmm You really dont know what your talking about do you. I didnt know quake grunt units where 16bit. And CtP units could be made up of several pixels and still look good. I take it civ3 units could be as detailed as pong graphics then and still look good as there only 8bit?????????? hahaha, the same time you could use graphics as good as quakes to make them. You respect them as much to say they could be made over night. SIMPLY: NO they CANNOT be made over night (quake grunts maybe could but were talking about ctp2 here) Ok and since when did the units in call to power 2, all use the same model??? WTF are you talking about. Of course you could do this.......IF you wanted the same unit for everything only wearing different clothes??? Ok, but CtP2 doesnt have an editor for making unit rules, so once again what are you talking about??

I don't know where to start...

To begin with realism IS HARD. Yes i know this because ive BEEN STUDYING art and media (got best grade if you care) and been inteo editing/modding for quake. Do you know how much time can be spent for finding a perfect skin tone? REALISM IS HARD.

About quake grunts: I was talking 'bout the wireframe. Not the texture. Please read my post again. (Or have you seen a 8/16 bit wireframe.)

And for using the same model convert it once you have a decent prafab so you don't have to do walk moves etc. over again. Why thrash a human body prefab when you can change skin tone/clothes/shape and quckli make it look lika a perfectly new human.

Still I'm not into rules making etc. as i stated above i was talking 'bout graphics.

	05-10-2002 09:56									#84
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quote: Originally posted by sun_tzu_159 StatusPerfect, Help is wanted for CTP2 units art. If you know people who are good at this sort of thing get them involved. With all due respect I would say that the more detailed you can get the unit the better it looks. If that takes some pixel by pixel cleaning then that is the effort that people who care will put in. Help is also wanted in using the CIVIII landscape tiles as in this thread. Again it would be useful if you could get people involved rather than sitting having a go at people who are putting the effort in. Regards Sun_Tzu

I'm not sitting having a go at people. Just just say that someone who's educated and using softare for thousands of dollare can do these things fairly easy.

And that's why can't help we would have to buy licenses for all the programs my friend is using at work over again or pirate (and thus stealing (serial numbers) from his company).

My post was a reply for those who said that the time that has to be put into graphics is a good excuse for firaxis not to put in swamps in civ 3.

I can't stand SMIFFGIG so this is my last post in this thread.

Bye.

	05-10-2002 09:57									#85
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BTW. SMIFFGIG i'm at least not talkign about killing sid meier like you do. Grow up.

	05-10-2002 10:01									#86
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Damn. Lousy spelling. Have to go to work so i can't change it

	05-10-2002 12:55									#87
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Why dont anyone use edit post in this forum, quadruple posts.

	05-10-2002 17:24									#88
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quote: BTW. SMIFFGIG i'm at least not talkign about killing sid meier like you do. Grow up

OMG a last desperate attempt to try and make me look bad how sad, everyone go and look at that post, we where talking about capture/kill princess/king/and jokingly Sid meier
So statusperfect YOU grow up - what a sad thing to do

quote: I can't stand SMIFFGIG so this is my last post in this thread.

hahahahaha probably cause I demined every single one of your lousy invalid points haha

quote: About quake grunts: I was talking 'bout the wireframe. Not the texture

Funny how you never mentioned this in any of your last posts yet we where supposed to randomly assume this. Are you making this up as you go along or is it just me lol!

statusperfect you really are spamming this thread with desperate pleads to redeem your idiotic statements, if I where you i would have shut up after your first worthless post about ctp2 terrain and units graphics "could be made over night" what a classic quote and "as detailed as a quake grunt or less " the list goes on. At least youve provided me (and probably many other poly members with some entertainment through your lack of knowledge and pig headedness to continually try and redeem yourself .
Anyway as you said "I can't stand SMIFFGIG so this is my last post in this thread " finally a meandering way of saying your wrong. Thank goodness for that no more senseless posts on your be-half (relief)

	05-10-2002 23:39									#89
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quote: Originally posted by statusperfect textures are not necessary as you model it in one-color pieces and lighting will the 3d program take care of

please read my posts.

i shouldn't be writing this but this has gotten overly personal and i feel i have to defend myself or at least answer you

no textures means you only have a wireframe. only a wireframe means you have no textures. and no textures means no 8/16 bits.

	06-10-2002 09:53									#90
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There should be terrain types for very high mountains. It would be impossible or very very time consuming to build a road there. For example, i don't think there is a railroad in the Himalayah; if there is, it was built in the 20th century!

Such mountains would provide natural protection for countries that have them. Only certain units could cross them.