04-09-2002 18:16									#1
	Cruise missile hitting Submarine?? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Playing yesterday, in my first modern war ever (now THIS is where the fun's at - oh yeah!) Anyways, I have a nuclear sub stationed a tile away from my enemy's coast (and a coastal city). It's basically patrolling for other subs. Well, it's just sitting there, when the AI launched a Cruise missile at it and IT SINKS! Now, I have 2 problems with this.

The first is, I didn't know cruise missiles were designed to sink a submarine? Is it physically possible to target a sub with a cruise missile? It's not like the thing surfaced - it was chilling underwater waiting for enemy subs!

Second, even if Cruise missiles are capable of sinking subs, how would it know my sub was there? I can't see enemy subs in my territory, and have had that mysterious invisible attacker inside my cultural borders before. How can the AI do this? Now granted, the loss of a sub when the AI would have saved itself a lot by hitting one of my battleships isn't a big deal, it seems strange that the AI can a) see my sub to target it, and b) target an underwater vessel in the first place.

	04-09-2002 18:31									#2
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unlikely as it might be, it might have bought the location of all your troops via its spy and then chosen to target the sub...

a lot of things are implausible in the game, one more isn't exactly a surprise - remember fun always beats reality in the game ( except for damn culture flips ). If you can do it ( and technically its a good idea as it removes a hidden unit with ease ) then the AI should too.

Maybe it was surfaced doing weather measurements or the crew was trying to remove their ghastly pale skin with some nice sunbathing?

	04-09-2002 20:45									#3
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No comments on the possibility of a cruise missile sinking a sub... that's the eternal "reality vs. game" issue...

But I have a pretty simple solution to the other part of your post. The AI did not need to spy on your troop locations. All it needed was a sub in that coastal city. The AI would see your sub (thanks to its sub), but your sub would not see the AI sub, as it was anchored in the city. Could it be that?

	04-09-2002 20:47									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Demerzel unlikely as it might be, it might have bought the location of all your troops via its spy and then chosen to target the sub...

I thought of that, but I have admittedly had little experience with espionage. This is the first game I've had the AI use it against me - I got pop-ups for attempted propoganda and disrupted production. Do you not get a pop-up when plans/maps/tech is stolen? I would think you would, but if not this is a possibility. Or maybe it is just the AI knowing where my troops are, although that has been denied several times over. Maybe they can just see subs in their cultural borders?

Or, maybe they did surface because it was time for shore leave and they were looking forward to tagging some of that nasty Persian booty

	04-09-2002 21:25									#5
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You don't get a pop-up when someone successfully does espionage, only when they fail. Okay, sometimes when they succeed, but are caught.

	04-09-2002 22:38									#6
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I am glad Vondrack figured a way for your sub to be detected without Metalhead's knowing it, because I sure couldn't think of one. In this game, mysteries are okay with me. In fact, they are a great source of the fun.

Of course, there is no prohibition from using a cruise missile against a sub, and if I had been in the AI's position, I might well have used the cruise missile instead of risking damage or loss of an attacking submarine.

	04-09-2002 22:41									#7
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack No comments on the possibility of a cruise missile sinking a sub... that's the eternal "reality vs. game" issue... But I have a pretty simple solution to the other part of your post. The AI did not need to spy on your troop locations. All it needed was a sub in that coastal city. The AI would see your sub (thanks to its sub), but your sub would not see the AI sub, as it was anchored in the city. Could it be that?

I'm more worried about how the AI saw my sub than the fact that a Cruise missile can't realistically target a sub (although it's still a little troublesome ) I didn't think of them maybe having a sub in their city - having recently stolen their troop position, I'll have to look into it

EDIT: dumb grammar mistake

	05-09-2002 11:19									#8
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Perhaps they are using the old ASROC system. Torpedoes being carried by cruise missiles isn't a new idea.

With respect to seeing the sub -> does aerial recon allow you to see a sub?

	05-09-2002 12:19									#9
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quote: Originally posted by YC4B4U ... With respect to seeing the sub -> does aerial recon allow you to see a sub?

No, only subs, nuc subs and AEGIS Cruisers can see subs.

The AI does not use (or need to use) recon missions.* OTOH, in PTW (multiplayer) would we see any evidence of a recon mission being performed by another player?? You cannot intercept recon missions.

* Based on the concept (not conclusively proven) that the AI knows where all units are, though they do not necessarily immediately react to such knowledge.

	05-09-2002 12:42									#10
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I have Had The AI use esponage against me in particular steal technology, i was playing at warlord level , miles(ish) up the tech tree.
(due to some savvy trading early on and beating the 4 opponents left back to the stone age)

Suddenly they are researching cure for cancer?? these guys have just got amphpibs!

I thought the AI was cut back under Prince level?

	05-09-2002 21:55									#11
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Did you have a battleship farther out from the coast? Maybe the AI was aiming for that but ran in to your sub? If AI ships move into a sub's space they will battle it out. Could happen with cruise missiles also, I suppose!

	06-09-2002 00:46									#12
	Re: Cruise missile hitting Submarine?? Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by metalhead how would it know my sub was there? I can't see enemy subs in my territory...

I think you can! If you select 'bombardment' and move the target cursor around. If the target light up, you know that there is enemy sub/subs in that location. Even if you can't see it, you would still know it there becuase you can be able to target it. It's just a theory; I haven't checked that out yet.

	06-09-2002 00:56									#13
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I tried that with a sub that was giving some of my BB's hell. It doesn't seem to work.

	06-09-2002 01:08									#14
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We have had means of finding subs for a long time that do not require being in visual range. Tracking the USSR subs was/is a science. Although I do not see any implementation of it in the game. I would say shooting missile to hit subs, is not a profitable undertaking. I suppose it could be done with a big enough payload and the sub not being too far below the surface.

	06-09-2002 03:18									#15
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I would say shooting missile to hit subs, is not a profitable undertaking.

What if the sub is carry a full load of nukes? In this case, I think it may be very profitable.

	06-09-2002 03:27									#16
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since when are cruise missiles lethal to sea units ??

I'm looking at rules in editor, version 1.29, and the lethal sea units is not set...

as far as how the AI saw your sub, most likely it had a sub/nuke sub/cruiser of its own in the nearby city

	06-09-2002 03:41									#17
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smelly,
Cruise Missiles have always been Lethal. Period. Since Day One. Long before the Lethal flags in the editor had been invented.

Also, Cruise Missiles target defense units in cities. No risk of collateral damage, so if that's what you are after, bring other bombadiers.

	06-09-2002 03:46									#18
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quote: Originally posted by smellymummy since when are cruise missiles lethal to sea units ??

Actually, it has been like that like forever (without any mod). I remember using cruise missile to sink ships long before patch 1.29f. That's pretty much the only thing that cruise missle is good for.

	06-09-2002 03:51									#19
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interesting, I didnt know. I thought it was just like other bombarding units. Guess it's time to build more of those missiles

	06-09-2002 05:07									#20
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quote: Originally posted by smellymummy interesting, I didnt know. I thought it was just like other bombarding units. Guess it's time to build more of those missiles

Yup, cruise missile is very good agaist enemy ships. If you use your ship to sink the enemy ships, you may damage your ships. Since the your ships won't heal unless it in a port (it takes forever for a ship to get back port for healing then getting back into the battle again), you may avoid a lot of trouble by using the cruise missle instead.

	06-09-2002 06:57									#21
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This is a little off topic but how is it possibile for a AEGIS Cruiser to detect subs? Granted they have thier own sonar platform but they aren't a dedicated subhunter like an ASW frigate. AEGIS ships are only good at shooting down planes and missles, which I think should be modeled in the game.

	06-09-2002 18:39									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Lecommencement This is a little off topic but how is it possibile for a AEGIS Cruiser to detect subs? Granted they have thier own sonar platform but they aren't a dedicated subhunter like an ASW frigate. AEGIS ships are only good at shooting down planes and missles, which I think should be modeled in the game.

As far as I know, they can, but I have yet to do it. I think the AI tries to keep their subs hidden. Once I ran a transport carrying 8 MA into an enemy sub - I can't post what I said when THAT happened

As for shooting down planes and missiles, I was under the same impression. However, I have had a couple sunk by Cruise Missiles, which I think is stupid. I'm pretty sure the advantage of AEGIS cruisers is supposed to be anti-aircraft and missile capabilities, which are advantageous in defending a stack of other powerful ships (battleships). As they are now, all you have is a 12/12 ship with 4 bombard - inferior to a battleship in every way. They can see subs, but even in the off-chance that a battleship runs into one, the battleship wins anyway, while taking minimal damage! Not useful at all IMO.

	06-09-2002 23:31									#23
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In the modern age I find ICs to be good sub hunters. Just zoom them around and eventually they'll hit the little so and so. If that doesn't kill it bring up a DD to finish him off. Then again I like ships and more so with every game that isn't on pangea.

How much damage do missiles do? I may stockpile a few for coastal defence.

	06-09-2002 23:38									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger What if the sub is carry a full load of nukes? In this case, I think it may be very profitable.

I meant that you would spend a great deal of time and money and likely not have anything to show for it. It is best to have ships to interdict those subs.

	07-09-2002 01:34									#25
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quote: Originally posted by metalhead As for shooting down planes and missiles, I was under the same impression. However, I have had a couple sunk by Cruise Missiles, which I think is stupid. I'm pretty sure the advantage of AEGIS cruisers is supposed to be anti-aircraft and missile capabilities, which are advantageous in defending a stack of other powerful ships (battleships). As they are now, all you have is a 12/12 ship with 4 bombard - inferior to a battleship in every way. They can see subs, but even in the off-chance that a battleship runs into one, the battleship wins anyway, while taking minimal damage! Not useful at all IMO.

I agree. Subs are rarely a big enough problem to warrants spending money on aegis cruisers to defend all my fleets. Though I really like the bombard ability of Civ3, I prefer the ships of civ2. Destroyers were my scouts, subhunters, and transport attackers, battleships were my shore bombarders and heavy vessels, aegis cruisers defended the battleships and carriers, and cruisers were my general purpose ship. Now, there is no real reason to build destroyers once you have battleships, unless you are going for quantity, and aegis cruisers don't offer the air defence they once did.

	07-09-2002 01:46									#26
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quote: Originally posted by dworkin In the modern age I find ICs to be good sub hunters. Just zoom them around and eventually they'll hit the little so and so. If that doesn't kill it bring up a DD to finish him off. Then again I like ships and more so with every game that isn't on pangea. How much damage do missiles do? I may stockpile a few for coastal defence.

I've been in extended naval warfare for about 40 turns now (well, the AI's lack of ships helps!), and they have probably shot cruise missiles at about 6 of my ships - and 5 of them sank! IIRC, 3 battleships, one AEGIS, and a Nuke Sub (with no nukes - go figure ) I don't think a human player has too much to gain from them, especially since the AI launched 2 at MA - neither was destroyed, although each suffered 2 HP damage. I'm not sure if ground units can be destroyed by them. The AI doesn't really build enough ships, at least on Monarch, to warrant building missiles, although they have a cool animation and are probably fun to play with. I guess they could be useful if you deploy your entire navy to enemy shores and the AI send a few ships over to bombard your coast and you have left no other option for destroying them, unless you have lethal bombard enabled for your bombers. In that case you're much better off with planes.

I, too, am beginning to stock up on ships a lot more than in the past. For intercontinental warfare, a sizable navy will pretty much guarantee that no AI troops reach your shoresn unless you deploy them like a fool.

	07-09-2002 01:54									#27
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quote: Originally posted by dworkin How much damage do missiles do? I may stockpile a few for coastal defence.

It has been awhile since I play the modern age. If I remember correctly, 1 missile can sink a ship if it hits its target. I usually have a dozen for defending my continent. With the railroad, my missiles can be anywhere within my continent as needed.

	07-09-2002 04:44									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Moonsinger It has been awhile since I play the modern age. If I remember correctly, 1 missile can sink a ship if it hits its target. I usually have a dozen for defending my continent. With the railroad, my missiles can be anywhere within my continent as needed.

I thought cruise missiles rebase, not move by rail.

	07-09-2002 11:10									#29
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CMs are just a bombard unit, like artillery, with one movement point.
They are the only stock bombard unit that is lethal (land and sea).
16 bombard; 2 range; 3 Rate of Fire (RoF) (i.e., can do 3 HP of damage).

3 RoF makes CMs better than Radar Artillery (RA), they are lethal, cost half of RA, but (BIG BUT) are expended after use. Well, they DO come alot sooner than RA...

	07-09-2002 11:19									#30
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quote: Originally posted by metalhead I'm not sure if ground units can be destroyed by them.

they do

i often use cruise missles to suddenly make an enemy capital undefended.

they work like a charm on any kind of unit, it seems.