05-09-2002 18:07									#31
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One thing I've learned about the AI is that to them, war and workers don't mix. It they have a worker there, they won't attack until its finished. The fact that we have a weak army compared to them is all the more reason to build our Army for the conquest of Persia.

Kill Persia! Strangle them with their own ROP(e)!

	05-09-2002 18:11									#32
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I would favour no great extension of our borders on Abananaba Major beyond incorporating America. Look at our French cities - barely productive, and the Persian cities we would take would be likewise until we can quickly build the FP (which we cannot do yet). Denying Persian Iron is all well and good, but a further protracted war will only open us up as an even bigger target. Who knows? - Persia may just convince someone like Germany or Greece into war with us, and that could be disastrous with the weakened defensive state of some of our cities.

I don't rule out the possibility of war with Persia, but please let us consolidate what we have first with defenses and a veteran army up to the challenge of taking - and holding - Persian cities.

	05-09-2002 18:17									#33
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We have to take Tyre and Sidon and move them east. Persia is the single greatest threat to us if they are not weakened considerably now.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 05-09-2002 at 20:10

	05-09-2002 18:27									#34
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MRWIA, would let the Great Pyramids Of Persepolis go when they are so close to your grasp? If you want consolidation, would it not help to have a grainery in every city? Would not our people be happy despite the larger population with wounderous spices and Incense? Could we not sell the extra Lux to get many Lpt (which would enable us to rush buy many things). Might we not get a GL (or two) from a prolonged war with an inferior foe? There are just too many upsides to really taking it to the Persians.

Plus, you gave them your trust and look what they did to us... to you.

MAKE THEM PAY!!

	05-09-2002 21:37									#35
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hi ,

tyre and sidon , .... and some tech , gold and world map , ....



but we should try to stay within reason , we may not forget there are other species out there that would like to have a piece of our skin , ....

have a nice day

	05-09-2002 21:43									#36
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We want to win this game, right? We don't want to just have a respectable nation, we want to end on top.

To win, we need to be stronger, richer, more advanced, and more productive than our neighbors. We don't have the production benefits of the AI, nor the peacekeeping benefits.

I'm not in favor of war for war's sake, but Persia has two things that I feel we desperately need for our nation to grow: Luxuries and the Pyramids.

With incense and spices, in addition to wines and dyes, our population in all our cities can grow two higher without substantial public subsidies into luxuries. The Pyramids will nearly double our growth rate.

Their land is fantanstic, but only if we get a Forbidden Palace built. Frankly, all of their empire will stagnate in corruption under our hands. We can't count on it for production until we deal with the size of our nation and build a second capitol.

But by removing the Persian threat while they're weak, adding two luxuries, and gaining the Pyramids, I feel we are benefiting the future of our nation. We lose no reputation in this war. They broke a treaty and sneak attacked us. Furthermore, our production for this war will raise our military strength and deter our foolish neighbors from considering an attack.

I see too many good reasons to continue this war, and I hope that the citizens of Apolytonia will agree. However, if the results of this poll turn are not in favor of a long term war of conquest with Persia, I will follow the will of the people.

--Togas

	05-09-2002 21:57									#37
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Take out T&S, then peace. We need to develop.

	05-09-2002 22:15									#38
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OMG I can't belive conquest is winning.

We are already overstreched as it is. With uber isle and the US being sitting ducks we already have plenty of land to expand into.

The Persians are quite strong and are likely to get others to join the war by giving theology/ money.

We don't have the infra-structure to support a war on this scale and this war would put us further behind in terms of infrastructure.

Our cities are badly defended as it is, we can't be building offensive units instead.

Persia may offer more but the risk is too great when we could take what the US has with ease and almost no risk.

	05-09-2002 22:43									#39
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To ease the fears of some that have previously posted, the following are the facts:

Persia has 24g and Theology. Germany, Greece, and Russia all have Theology. It is unlikely that Persia will be able to pull in Greece or Germany as allies. Germany just signed a 20 turn peace treaty with us, France as well is under a peace treaty. Greece is at war with England and the Aztecs.

The only viable ally would come from Abananaba minor.

Persia does not have Chivalry, but if it attains it, the only unit it would have would be Longbowmen. Without iron, it cannot build knights. Longbowmen can be killed easily by horsemen.

With peace, Persia finally locks onto Iron, and then either picks us or the English to invade with knights late Middle Ages.

Production? We keep border cities building defense, core cities do culture/science production, eastern cities build just a few more warriors that upgrade to swordsmen (no one has Chivalry) and a few pikemen, then add one settler to Uber Isle and let it build for itself. That will sastify all our needs.

Lastly, we need a Forbidden Palace. We also badly need a GL. We can possibly get both through a continued war with Persia.

This is not just the best time, this is the ideal time! Our neighbors are either tied up in war, or tied up with peace treaties. Persia will never be weaker. We can afford to do both development and war, as our war units are easy to produce. And in the end, we double our luxuries and capture a wonder of the world.

--Togas

	05-09-2002 22:54									#40
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The first three wars were too easy, although they were won by very little. The Persian war could also be easy but it will cost us a delay in building which will make almost impossible to react in case of attack by a strong civ.

If we go to the conquest, at least let a significant defence force in the heart of the empire.

	05-09-2002 22:55									#41
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Hmmmmn

Do you think you'd be able to this off using only the offensive units we currently have?

I mean all of them including the ones stationed in France.

	05-09-2002 23:16									#42
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If we could, we should. The Pyramids never expires, if I'm not wrong.

	06-09-2002 02:23									#43
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OPD, I'm neither endorsing a war of conquest or not, I'm just explaining what we can do(not necessarily should do). A note we are still at least 6 turns from tyre sidon attack, so we will have time.
Currently we will have the following force that could get involved in the attack on sidon/tyre
2horse, 4 reg sword,
+2 reg sword would be available during the attack on sidon.
We have or will have 2eilte,3vet swords that will be available by the time we get to antioch/gordium(these are coming from france 3 on land 2 by boat.
This gives us 11sword(2e,3v,6r),2horse(2v) for the initial operation. Also I am planning on upgrading 1 or 2 spear to pikeman for defense, imagine their reg archers attacking our vet pike in jungle.
This force could take the 4 initial cities.
It probably could not go further( I estimate in would stand at 7sw,2horse at this time, -2/3 sword for garrison leaves us 4sw,2horse)
Also this would leave a good force in french front.
To go further I would like 3 horse, and 4 sword all vet.
This is just so everybody knows what we are looking at.
I also am assuming we will average 1 sword lost per city.
Aggie

	06-09-2002 02:53									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie OPD, I'm neither endorsing a war of conquest or not, I'm just explaining what we can do(not necessarily should do). A note we are still at least 6 turns from tyre sidon attack, so we will have time. Currently we will have the following force that could get involved in the attack on sidon/tyre 2horse, 4 reg sword, +2 reg sword would be available during the attack on sidon. We have or will have 2eilte,3vet swords that will be available by the time we get to antioch/gordium(these are coming from france 3 on land 2 by boat. This gives us 11sword(2e,3v,6r),2horse(2v) for the initial operation. Also I am planning on upgrading 1 or 2 spear to pikeman for defense, imagine their reg archers attacking our vet pike in jungle. This force could take the 4 initial cities. It probably could not go further( I estimate in would stand at 7sw,2horse at this time, -2/3 sword for garrison leaves us 4sw,2horse) Also this would leave a good force in french front. To go further I would like 3 horse, and 4 sword all vet. This is just so everybody knows what we are looking at. I also am assuming we will average 1 sword lost per city. Aggie

hi ,

, great plan , lets go for it

have a nice day

	06-09-2002 03:07									#45
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Aggie
With regard to ming production
BHQ is currently producing a horseman which I guess you are already counting on having for the attack. As for the other cities would you like more offensive units or would it be ok if we build pikemen to take the place of the swordsmen in France so that they can go to the front lines also?

All of the troops in France (4 swords and 3 archers) could be relieved if we could get a few pikemen over there?

	06-09-2002 04:20									#46
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Pikeman or horse would be best, I believe.
Pikeman can upgrade all the way to Mech Inf.
Horse can upgrade all the way to Calvary.
Sword can't upgrade at all
doing the Pikeman would delay the War effort as they would have to walk all the way to the French cities then walk all the way to the front. Horse don't have the offensive value as sword. Mounted swordmen (a concept I have been hearing about) would combine the best of both. Lets try to get those...

	06-09-2002 04:36									#47
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I would like a pikeman built and sent to france. I think after that though we should leave the garrison there. They are isolated and if attacked would have to hold out until help arrived. To do so would require some offensive capability, so except for the 2 extra I'm bringing from there I don't want more to come back.
I do now have an approximate timeline for operations.
Just so decisions and plans can be made, we could stop at the end of any stage so these plans are "if we get there" plans.
Note to public works a road rush built over mountain to tyre could cut up to 2 turns off attack time.
Note for City planner: units take 6 turns(4 if road built to tyre) to get to tyre from core cities and from there 2 turns to useful position, so w/o rd we need extra units ready by turn 11 or turn 13 with road. Those units will not be used for the stages mentioned here. so if we decide to end at stage 1 or 2 we don't need those units.
Also note there will be about 2 pikemen with army. Hopes this makes decisions easier.

turn(1-5) upgrading and movement of troops, at turn 5 an army of 4sw and 2 horse ready to move on tyre/sidon

turn(6-10) 2 more sw arrive on scene
attack on sidon/tyre(battle will start on turn 7/8),
End of stage 1

turn(11-13) attack units recover and other units get to sidon

turn14 units move 2e of tyre
Estimated force 9sword and 2horse
turn 15 1/2(with horse) move e, then s to 1n of gordium
1/2(w/o horse) move e, then n to march on antioch

turn 16 Southern force(SF) attack Gordium
Northern Force(NF) move N

turn 17 SF recover and moves remaining horses N
NF ne

turn 18 As many units as citizens stay in gordium, rest move n
NF ne

Turn 19 Nf attacks Antioch from hill
End of stage 2

If there is a stage 3 it will be the attack on the heartland of the persians. Plan for that not possible to make right now will have to wait to see results of stage2
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 06-09-2002 at 04:42

	06-09-2002 11:55									#48
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IMHO the Pyramids are very tempting but right now is not the best time to conquer them. We should rather attempt to take Persia's iron. Then we'll have a huge advantage over them and we'll be able to take the pyramids swiftly with an army of knights in 20-25 turns or so.
In the mean time our swordsmen will be busy taking America's incense and maybe wiping them out completely.

	06-09-2002 19:43									#49
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I was sitting here thinking about the Persia situation, actually thinking that maybe Presidential hopeful OPD might be right. A long war could be costly and, hey, they don't have Iron now and most likely won't have it in the future. We will be able to take them out at our leisure. Then I remembered that spearmen can be upgraded directly to Musketmen and completely romove Pikemen from the equation. We don't have gunpowder yet (so we don't know where the saltpeter is) and neither do they. Which one of us do you think is going to get there first? Persia of course (with all their rivers and incense to increase trade). If saltpeter is somewhere in their land, our opertunity to take them out will be forever gone (leaving our east to a treacherous enemy). If we attack now, attack hard and don't stop, they won't get gunpowder as they will have changed their tax rate to fund a futile war against us. Its now or we slug it out with Tanks, Artillery and Infantry.

And that will kill lots of kittens.
Please... will someone think of the kittens?

	06-09-2002 20:17									#50
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Pikeman or horse would be best, I believe. Pikeman can upgrade all the way to Mech Inf. Horse can upgrade all the way to Calvary. Sword can't upgrade at all doing the Pikeman would delay the War effort as they would have to walk all the way to the French cities then walk all the way to the front. Horse don't have the offensive value as sword. Mounted swordmen (a concept I have been hearing about) would combine the best of both. Lets try to get those...

hi ,

well units that we cant upgrade , or that we dont want to upgrade can always be used to be disdanded in a city , ......

have a nice day

	06-09-2002 20:20									#51
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I'm thinking of the kittens. The reason tells me to wait, but those kittens... sniff... Take the Pyramids now!

	06-09-2002 20:23									#52
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quote: Originally posted by panag well units that we cant upgrade , or that we dont want to upgrade can always be used to be disdanded in a city ,

Swordsmen cost 30 shields. When disbanded in a city, they return 7. IMHO it's much wiser not to build additional swordsmen in the first place.

	06-09-2002 20:36									#53
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Well the vote to go past sidon/tyre is 22-20 for, but has really tightened up. Well it won't be an issue for another week since the sidon/tyre atack won't happen until tue/wed. Maybe we'll repost this poll again then after we have those 2 cities, right now stage 2 seems to be the favorite(with a vote like this i think the point where the majority is reached is the course of action).
Aggie

	06-09-2002 21:46									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Swordsmen cost 30 shields. When disbanded in a city, they return 7. IMHO it's much wiser not to build additional swordsmen in the first place.

hi ,

indeed , so when we have infantry or musketman we should disband them , they shall help to build the new unit faster , and we shall not have to spend money on an old unit , ...

have a nice day

	07-09-2002 02:17									#55
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IMHO, we don't have a strong army enough to take Tyre/Sidon (and keep them safely). We need at least 7/8 turns to prepare our attack. The Persians could attack us before, and we could have some surprises !

We need to consolidate our positions in the western side of our empire. Keep forces there in case of a sneak attack from Greece or France. In addition, if we leave the recently conquered towns less garrisoned, they could flip !

IMO, we should make peace now and prepare the colonization of Uber Isle......We need settlers and workers !!

Peace !

	07-09-2002 02:25									#56
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What on earth would the Persians counter attack with?

Archers? Hah! They suck now, just ask Togas!

	07-09-2002 02:26									#57
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I voted for the Pyramids, in the trust that Aggie will take good care of our defenses (because he have the necessary troops) and then march with a big army all the way over the Persian territory. We can do this.
Err.. we CAN do this, right, Aggie?
Please, say yes…

	07-09-2002 02:40									#58
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We have to take Persia or they'll be so entrenched in their "Garden of Eden" that it will be virtually impossible to take them until we have nuclear weapons.

	07-09-2002 03:07									#59
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Archers? Hah! They suck now, just ask Togas!

Persian archers are pathetic, however, APOLYTONIA ARCHERS are a fierce, firey, dedicated breed of patriot that can destroy cities and score countless touchdowns!

Err. Um... sorry about that. Got caught thinking of my Jungle Ball franchise. We face off with Donegeal's pathetic team this weekend.

Time to get back on topic...

If we don't prune the Persians now, they will return with more than their pathetic archers. They will arrive with knights and immortals. We have the power to protect Apolytonia's future. Don't force our children to have to fend off a Persian hoard because we were too cowardly to do it ourself.

--Togas

	07-09-2002 03:12									#60
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And our "Archerers" are pretty tough too!