05-09-2002 03:22									#1
	Persia: Peace, Quick War, or Total Conquest? Support Apolyton

Citizens,

Germany has paid us a handsome sum to cease the war, but Persia is also willing to pay to end it. The original policy of the Ministry was to end the Persian war after the two Grand Basin cities were captured, but discussion in the War Academy thread has got me thinking. We all need to discuss this. How far should we go with Persia?

A) End it now, take the money and run.
B) Quick war. 2 cities. Cash out. Focus on America, Uber Isle, and ourself.
C) Longer war. Conquer until they give us such a good deal we can't possibly say no.
D) Conquest. We take the Pyramids and their very fertile land and resources.

They are military pushovers without iron. Their best unit is an archer. They cannot poprush defenders. We have some signifigant advantages over them.

Please discuss this topic at length so a decision can be made before the next turnchat.

--Togas

p.s. This poll will last 3 days. It is technically unofficial but will be made to make an official policy decision, so please, everyone vote.

	05-09-2002 03:27									#2
	Re: Persia: Peace, Quick War, or Total Conquest? Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Togas Citizens, They are military pushovers without iron. Their best unit is an archer. They cannot poprush defenders. We have some signifigant advantages over them.

But then they are in a position to advance quickly in science so we will probably end up fighting Longbowmen and Knights.

	05-09-2002 03:31									#3
	Re: Re: Persia: Peace, Quick War, or Total Conquest? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb But then they are in a position to advance quickly in science so we will probably end up fighting Longbowmen and Knights.

Actually, that's an important point for conquest/long war... Persia's a pushover now, but they won't be forever...

Right now, I'm undecided -- I want to hear the discussion first, as I see benefits to both sides.

-- adaMada

	05-09-2002 03:32									#4
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Oh I fully agree, I just want people to realize what the potential downsides are.

	05-09-2002 03:37									#5
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Oh I fully agree, I just want people to realize what the potential downsides are.

'k. Just checking that everyone saw the positive side of it too...

-- adaMada

	05-09-2002 03:41									#6
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I find myself, to my shock and amazement, questioning whether or not prolongment of this war would be of benefit (my usual stance is that none of this ridiculous war was needed). Before reading the War Academy thread, and this thread, my answer would've been "Sign now". The terms are decent now.

Perhaps conquest would benefit us. After all, having the Pyramids would give us a little growth spurt that we so desparatly need. Really, their land and resources are worth more to us than America, or even Uber Isle at this point. And if we continue to allow them unbridled growth, they may well be a significant threat later on.

If they are as weak as anticipated, I beleive that this war may bring benefits outweighing the costs.

Undoublatbly, the current situation calls for the taking of the two cities nearest us.

My Opinion is that we should prolong the war, HOWEVER, we should delay war with the U.S. indefinitely. I'm thinking we could probably get a new tech if we keep at it. I'm almost always against wars, so I am also reluctant to be a proponent of total conquest, even if we would net the pyramids.

Option 3, continue war for better settlement, is my vote.

	05-09-2002 03:42									#7
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Total War!

	05-09-2002 03:53									#8
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I'm new to the Demo game, so forgive me if I miss something important. Also, I have not got up to Deity yet (just started winning on Monarch)

The Persians seem to be weak now, and we have a lot of Swordsmen available.

They have great territory, lots of grass, cows and wheat, whereas we have jungle. That is also a good case for trying to get the Pyramids, to compensate for what will be a lot of jngle tiles for some time, depite our stacks of workers and slaves.

The city third nearest to us (Antioch?) has iron just outside its borders, so any "quick strike" should endeavour to secure the iron before their borders expand and get the science (if they do not already have it).

If we get ANtioch, we might as well finish the job off! The empire would then be somewhat spread out E-W, but we would have a very central capital. And great territory.

ps I'm not normally a warmonger

	05-09-2002 03:54									#9
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I belive that I have made opinion very clear in other threads:

KILL!!

Yes they might be technologicly advanced now but it does them no good with out the all important Iron. Knights require Iron if I remember correctly. The Longbowmen would worry my except that I don't think they have the money to upgrade their Archers. Believe it or not, I think I would go for continuing the war with them until we take their Capitol (and Pyramids) then sue for all that we can. Leaving them alive lets us sue for Tech that we would otherwise have to buy from someone else.

So I vote "near conquest"

hmmmm... not an option... damn. Ok wait for "Sweet Deal"

	05-09-2002 03:57									#10
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Oops! Sweet Deal only after we take Pyramids!

	05-09-2002 04:00									#11
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Pyramids, iron, and all the luxury resources.

I guess they could keep Tarsus.

Send a message that NO ONE breaks an ROP treaty with us and gets away with it!

	05-09-2002 04:10									#12
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Take Tyre and Sidon, then send a stern warning that if they ever declare war on us again, we will eradicate them. Utterly. No one shall betray us like that ever again without punishment.

(Where's that red font Uber used...?)

	05-09-2002 04:15									#13
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At least get the pyramids unless something changes between now and then. Make them pay for their treachery :P

	05-09-2002 04:32									#14
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Our civilization needs a break. We just got a large chunk of land from France that we need to develop and our culture and infrastructure is lagging far behind. My opinion is that we cannot forever continue to conquest with a bunch of crap cities. We need production, culture, and a decent science output. Besides, our empire is near the corruption threshold, taking a few other cities will not help us much for now.

	05-09-2002 04:41									#15
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i think we should conquer until we have what we want, which is luxuries, iton, more cities and the pyramids. if that means a more prolonger war, then so be it. we must strike now!

	05-09-2002 05:36									#16
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Looking at the map, I have come to the conclusion that if we want to take the lux's and Pyramids, we will have to fight until the only city they have left is Taurus. When you sue for peace, an AI will never giv up its Capitol and one other city. So the only way to get all that we want from Persia will be to take all but the last city. Hmmmm... just something to think about.

	05-09-2002 05:42									#17
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Let me pose this question, just to further test the waters of public opinion .

If we said that we could either do war with Persia now, or instead do a very steady and successful colonization of Uber Isle, what would people think then?

Uber Isle may well still be free for the taking twenty or thirty turns from now, but if it's not we will have lost a major opportunity. On the other hand, if we don't take Persia right now then there's a good chance we never will without a much larger fight.

Of course, we could try to find some middle line, but I think it'd wind up damaging one of the ventures. If we build Uber isle based on the one city we have there, we won't be vary far for a very long time; if we build a little bit for Uber Isle and also try to attack Persia then we'll probably be hurt more than we'll be helped.

Even if you disagree with this assessment (which does need some refining), please post what you would do if this were true so we know which is more important. Also, if anyone has any opinions on which land is more valuable -- the land on Uber Isle or Persia's land, please post, since that would help me make my own personal decision.

-- adaMada

	05-09-2002 07:47									#18
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After some brief calculations, I have decided that we would need about 6sword and 4horse for a war of conquest(beyond antioch). Can these extra forces be created. These like I said are rough estimates.
Aggie

	05-09-2002 07:51									#19
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I just want Theology from them.

	05-09-2002 08:07									#20
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Only six swordmen and four horsemen to take the entire Persian Empire? How many more units to protect the cities we take? Or would we take them one by one, over many turns.

I'm very interested in your estimate, Aggie. If I thought we could do it with so few units, then I'd be inclined to build more than that and go for it. I just don't see it happening with only one or two stacks...

-- adaMada

	05-09-2002 08:08									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse I just want Theology from them.

If they've got Theology, then either option three or option four would probably get it for us...

-- adaMada

	05-09-2002 08:33									#22
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As I think my post started all of this.... Leave them taurus.

With taurus, we make peace, get all their tech, we now also have 2 more luxuries, a ready made infrastructure, and the pyramids.

Production wise, the west & north will focus on growth & culture, the homeland will focus on war and infrastructure, the east will focus entirely on the war, and uber isle (south) will just act like it is starting a new game with only itself as the player, and with a big brother to pump in some tech and funds to spead things up (ie - purchase a grainery first thing).

So ya, lets do it.

Knights need iron, and after their 3rd city falls, they are S.O.L in that regard. Longbow has an attack of 4, but a wimpy defence of only 1 so when we see them, just send in our horsie to kill it before it can do anything serious to us.

OK. nough rambling. And to think, I usually play as a builder......

	05-09-2002 08:44									#23
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I bet we could get it from option B, but we wouldn't get much else.

	05-09-2002 09:13									#24
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We cannot overextend in Persia. Germany and Greece are the bigger threats to us. How long into our Persian Pillaging do think before one of the big G's sneak-attack us and catch most of our units in the far east?
Growth, Defense, and Uber Island are what are most important. Your eyes are all greedy with warfare, but your forgeting excatly how lucky we were that Germany turned and ran. Don't be a fool and think they won't be back, possibly with gunpowder!

	05-09-2002 09:23									#25
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gunpowder - ya in real life. unfortunately in civ all that gives is a musketear. nice on defence. sucks on offence. No, I see germany as a threat in the future, but not until the later part of this age or the beginning of the industrial age. By then persia will be done, and our infrastructure will be in full swing except on uber island as they will still be expanding (and hopefully keeping the russians off our beaches there).

	05-09-2002 09:33									#26
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Let's keep the Persian War short & sweet.

1. If Madame Joan can bribe Germany & Persia to go to war against us, surely Persia can ask Germany or others to do the same ? German swordmen are pulling out of Napoleton. We wouldn't want them to come back so soon.

2. We know what Uber Island has to offer. Let's go on Rex mode there before somebody grabs it.

	05-09-2002 13:25									#27
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Lets take at least Tyre and Sidon and see what they offer. If they offer us nothing of intrest then take the Pyramids, as it would help us to grow.

But dont focus too much on the war, remember to build infrastructure and improvements AND colonize UberIsland.

	05-09-2002 13:51									#28
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IMHO, right now, we must resist the temptation to overextend ourselves.

I vote Tyre and Sidon only.

	05-09-2002 14:33									#29
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Use Lyton reserves to rush buy on Uber Island. Don't worry about infrastructure on Uber as we should be rush buying settlers, which kkeps the population low and happy. I frastructure on the mainland will progress whether we are at war or not and shouldn't count as a factor. The only sacrafice that would be made for an extended war/conquest of Persia would be a delay in building improvements as we will need the Core cities (and maybe some of the East border) to produce Knights. The benefit then comes in the form of a second war with America. Our Veteran Knights will then be able to move from Persia and secure Incense Valley. The entire war will only cost about ..er.. whatever it would cost to make two knights in each of the core cities. With this, the Great Basin will be ours entirerly!

	05-09-2002 15:10									#30
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The main problem I see, is that we have not yet our mobile force and we dont know where is the mighty Greek army. I dont believe it in Newcastle (or it would be quite ineffective), and 2 Greek horsemen have just appeared in the vicinity of Chiquita (BTW one of them is in our territory and should be asked to leave). The loss of Delmonte and Timeline would cut the Empire in two very uncomfortable parts. Also a Greek worker (NNW of Chiquita) is probably preparing to connect Argos and Washington. All this shows an increasing activity in this area.

We need to move quickly three horsemen around Delmonte.

Edit : I meant Timeline, not Tassagrad.

Last edited by DAVOUT on 05-09-2002 at 15:23