06-09-2002 05:08									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin What lie is it that we are supposedly believing?

1) They hate us for our freedom.
2) They hate us for our democracy.
3) They hate us for our religious tolerence.

The reason why so many people believe it was the Israelis is because the Israelis are believed to be all powerful and capable of doing anything.

	06-09-2002 05:09									#32
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Boshko beats me to the punch.

	06-09-2002 05:17									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara 1) They hate us for our freedom. 2) They hate us for our democracy. 3) They hate us for our religious tolerence.

Certainly these three charcteristics are anathema to the large majority of the the power struture and elite in most of the arab world and much of the muslim world.

	06-09-2002 05:34									#34
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And Lefty demonstrates. Thanks.

	06-09-2002 06:05									#35
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"
1) They hate us for our freedom.
2) They hate us for our democracy.
3) They hate us for our religious tolerence."

True to an extent. Part of their hatred includes that of our culture, of which those 3 are a part. Also, many of the hard-core islamists want to dispose of any government anywhere that rules by other than the Sharia. It would be foolish to think they are bravely(if dishonorably) fighting against US imperialism- they have their own imperial ambitions, that being to make all the world to submit to Islam.

	06-09-2002 06:06									#36
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Ahh, but Tom Tomorrow beat you all by over a year:

	06-09-2002 06:49									#37
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Tom Tommorow really is a crappy artist. What is with the background there? And that really poor drawing of Wanda doesn't change her facial expression once.The only thing that changes with Biff's expression is his eyes moving.

	06-09-2002 07:09									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara 1) They hate us for our freedom. 2) They hate us for our democracy. 3) They hate us for our religious tolerence.

They hate you beause of giving BLIND support to Israelis.
(they are our alies, we don't care what they do to arabs)
And Israelis aren't realy a "good" guys.
(at least not against Arab nations)

Anway,
they ahte you becase of your foreign policy.

And unfortunatly, American citizens are baraly infomred about their foreign policy (at least average Americans).

So at the end it has nothing to do beause of American internal policiies (they rely wont care if you are even comunist or dictatorship). It's all about Americans foreign policy.
Which is VERY agressive.

	06-09-2002 08:07									#39
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"At least not to Arab nations"
Gee, I wonder why that could be? Is it because Arab goverm,emts and media constantly spread propoganda and myth about Israelis and Jews? Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw. Couldn't be.
They hate Americans because of their foreign policy is a half truth. The Arab governments spread lies and propoganda against America and Israel. Thus, the Arabs in those countries hate Israel/America and their foreign policies, which because of lies/propoganda by the Arab Governments, have been misinerpreted as "imperialism and 'lets conquer the Arab countries".
Anyone who thinks Israel doesn't want peace (referring to the good guys statement of player1's post) should take a look at our culture and especially our music. We are addicted to songs about how great peace would be, how we want to live in peace, all of this ideological stuff. We were even more addicted to it pre-intifada (for obvious reasons).

	06-09-2002 08:16									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Tom Tommorow really is a crappy artist. What is with the background there? And that really poor drawing of Wanda doesn't change her facial expression once.The only thing that changes with Biff's expression is his eyes moving.

You see the picture but you don't see the picture.

	06-09-2002 08:17									#41
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Hmm, I wonder if it is possible they could hate a nation that stole their land land and continually oppress 5 million muslims... All the propaganda in the world could possibly make them hate Israel LESS, but not more.... Israels actions does that all by itself.

Shi, actually the lack of movement adds something to the cartton I think. It bring attention to the fact that it is the thoughts of the characters that is important, not what they are doing. I like it.

	06-09-2002 08:21									#42
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quote: Originally posted by player1 They hate you beause . . .

Someone failed to read the quote before my post, didn't he.

	06-09-2002 08:26									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico Anyone who thinks Israel doesn't want peace (referring to the good guys statement of player1's post) should take a look at our culture and especially our music. We are addicted to songs about how great peace would be, how we want to live in peace, all of this ideological stuff. We were even more addicted to it pre-intifada (for obvious reasons).

Hmm...

And whose land was that before 100years?

P.S.
By the way, no one of them is a good guy.
The fault of American politic is that they always say: Israelis are good guys, Israelis are good guys, Israelis are good guys, Israelis are good guys, Israelis are good guys, etc...
And thos Arabs are bad guys, bad guys, bad guys, bad guys, bad guys, bad guys, ect...

WWII is long over. Jews are not only victims today.



P.P.S.
Hating someone just beacuse of their way or life, or democracy is just pure Amreican propaganda.

The sooner that American people realise, the sooner will peace come.

	06-09-2002 08:30									#44
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For example I don't see some great hate toward England, Germany or France.

They are also progressive democracies.

So it must be other reson.



P.S.
Chances for peace were much better several years ago.
And then came Israelis elections.
And shift in policy.

	06-09-2002 08:52									#45
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"For example I don't see some great hate toward England, Germany or France.

They are also progressive democracies. "

I thought there was a report saying Al Qaeda was planning on targeting the British Parliament too........

In any case, of course they are going to focus on us most since we are the leader of the world. But do not think Al Qaeda is going on some sort of noble anti-imperialism crusade. Why do you think it is that no moslem governments have any support for Al Qaeda? The super hard-line militant islamists want more Islamic revolutions and spread Taliban-style government all over the Islamic world. They take the Koran literally and very seriously, and the Koran demands to spread Islam by force.

	06-09-2002 09:01									#46
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"For example I don't see some great hate toward England, Germany or France.

They are also progressive democracies"

Falacy. 3 attacks have been broken up in Europe. The Swedish Hijacker. The rome plot. And the plan to blow up the French Cathedral.



To somehow assume cause OBL has not attacked Europe means he has no beef with you and you are his friends all is fine and well is a dangerous assumption. He makes clear his hate for all non-islamic nations. Look what he did to the afghans just today.

Americans know about the foriegn policy. That is another fallacy. It is Arabs who are clueless. We dont blindlessly support Israel. We have made our intentions clear about peace that we want. Do they forget our Support for continually belligerent and oppressive states like Eygp, Turkeyt and Saudi Arabia? Nobody probably even told them...

Im not talking about support..support. Im talking about billions of dollars of economic aid and totally rebuilding Eygpt and Saudi Arabias armed forces.

	06-09-2002 09:03									#47
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I dont think we should be supporting any arab government. But the people seems to be happy under there little monarchy. So they cant use that against us. They would hate us for not helping and hate us for helping.

America= Screwed royally up the poop chute by arab Media.

	06-09-2002 09:15									#48
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quote: Originally posted by player1 For example I don't see some great hate toward England, Germany or France.

Not now. Go back 100 years and fast forward people's attitudes to today with mass media. Different picture, right?

Do people b!tch and kvetch about the US? Yup.

Why? They are in the way of a good many people.

Islamists would be able to do a whole lot'o sh!t were it not for the US not liking them and wanting to squash the bug.

Euros would be a lot happier if no one got in the way of the world government once the need to fend off the Sovs was gone.

Canadians (and ANZACs presumably) just like to b!tch.

It would serve the lot of the fvckwads right if the US withdrew and left the rest of the world to their just deserts.

Go ahead, blow each other up! The Americas don't really need that oil. Don't come crying to the Americas to bail your asses out again though.

Am I a Mercan? No. Am I an American? Yes. I live in a country that has had enough of the rest of the world's petty bull sh!t scurrying around and about and trying to be important.

Let me spell this out.

W E . D O N T . R E A L L Y . N E E D . Y O U .

Why do you think the Mercans stay involved?

	06-09-2002 09:22									#49
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand There isn't a chance in Hades of THAT happening.

I must concur with Sagacious -- I definitely disagree.

	06-09-2002 09:24									#50
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I think in the absence of a super-power Europe would join together against outside threats like Islam. They did it in the middle ages. Kicked there asses out of Spain and booted the Ottomans back a bit from the fringes of Italy and Austria


dont need america

	06-09-2002 09:26									#51
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Good. Handle it then. Oh, sorry, it's oil for Japan and Europe the US is so fussed about.

Damn, pesky trade partners.

	06-09-2002 10:05									#52
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If Isreal did not exist would the average Arab's situation be any better? Nope.
I think this is yet another way to divert attention from the continued failure of Arab leadership.

	06-09-2002 11:47									#53
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I don't believe in 'Jewish conspiracy', now that's far fetched. Israel could have motivation for it, as in the US attacking the Arab world, and maybe getting alliance. But I still don't believe it, if Israel wanted that really bad, they could of done it differently and much easier, and risks conspiracing like that would be disasterous if ended in failure. And it would be so big, that investigation would have shown it already, so no, they're not behind this at all.
Then who did it? I don't know.. it's not sure even that OBL did it, though he's the main suspect and could have done it. Anyway he should be taken care of even if he didn't do this.

It's not fair to say that rest of the world hates the US simply because it's not true. And that the terrorists would hate the US etc because of freedom and stuff? Why? You actually believe that they hate freedom so much? Sure.. whatever.
I believe they hate the US because of their actions in foreign countries. It doesn't matter if you see them as good or bad actions. People have a tendency to not like foreign troops in their lands anyway.
Some of them might hate the US for tolerance in religions.

In my mind it's the same propaganda that arabs hate freedom and that the US is the great satan.

	06-09-2002 12:25									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Then who did it? I don't know.. it's not sure even that OBL did it, though he's the main suspect and could have done it.

Are you serious when you say that Pekka?

	06-09-2002 13:42									#55
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Half serious.. I'm not saying he's not guilty of it, I'm just saying there hasn't been any evidence presented. Have you seen any?
I don't know what's the problem with this, I still think he's a bad guy and should be taken out. And he is the most prominent candidate for it, that's for sure. How do you know he did it?

	06-09-2002 14:00									#56
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What about his admissions and gloating about it?

	06-09-2002 14:02									#57
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And let me clear on this one. My personal opinion and guess is that he did it. There you go. I've seen only one tape.. and that's been debated a lot. I'm on your side.

Arabs think Israel did it. I bet they haven't seen any evidence either, and still they believe it. You see my point? Bush held evidence very long time, but I believe he showed it to some allied leaders and they confirmed it was good, so that's good enough for me. And that's why I believe OBL did it, though I haven't seen any evidence, real hard evidence, that leaves no questions.
It's secret... but if it was public, maybe the people in Arab world would come around. So, if there is good evidence, they should show it to them. So it wouldn't be matter of faith.

	06-09-2002 14:04									#58
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Yeah that was the tape you I mentioned.. that is evidence, yes. But to me that's not very good, if that's the only evidence there is, and it's originality is debated a lot. I'm not saying it's propaganda, I'm saying there should be more, to show everybody. Mostly to arab world, so they wouldn't think it was Israel.

	06-09-2002 14:10									#59
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All I'm saying is, what does it hurt to lay all the evidence to the public, the war already started against him? Only one tape?

	06-09-2002 14:11									#60
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OK Pekka, however it seems the ME would think it was the Israeli's fault if the moon fell down in our laps.

I'm not sure what their point is, other than to wipe that nation out. Hell, they can move to Moose Jaw if that would help. We've got room. That's the Israelis that is.