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Alireza1354
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Sunnism and shi'ism only tears us apart.
There will only be islam.
Yes, I hope that a united, stabile, free and prosperous muslimworld will contribute positively to the world.
We aren't there yet, but we are coming and there is no way back.
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Alireza1354
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Who knows if it will happen ...
Saddam may burn in hell, and his creators in Washington too.
We are hard underway and no-one will stop us, no pentagon and certainly NO sharons or Saddams.
As the timespan is concerned.. according to political en economical analysts Asia is passing the west by slowly but surely. We muslims will profit from this shift of power.
As for ourselves, we want to work together and we are. Step by step the international and intra-national situations in the muslim world are shifting and maturing to a better alternative.
Iran is reforming, Iraq will soon change, the Qatari are expirementing with the freedom of speech, the arab states are growing to eachother, the south asian muslimstates are cristallyzing their plans for a common market, central asia is enstrengthening their bonds with the middle east., Lybia is investing in black africa and we have good bonds with China, south America and Europe.
Furthermore there is a frustrated Russia for loosing its position to the USA and there is an re-orienting Israel which will sooner or later make peace with us so we can live in harmony like we did for centuries with muslim spain as our great nostalgic legacy. Israel will in the long term be our Hong Kong.
As for Iraq..
Remember these words...
I will predict what will happen.
The puppetregime of Saddam will fall.
Iran (USA's greatest enemy) will become stronger cause the shi'ites of Iraq will seek for intensive cooperation with Iran. The reformers in Iran will be enstrengthened by the incoming Iraqi's and the fundamentalist regime will fall and will be followed by pragmatist nationalists who are very very very sceptic about the USA with the difference that they pose a greater threat to the USA and her interests cause they arent such idiots like the fundamentalists and know what they are doing. You will hear alot from Iran in the future
Turkey (USA's greatest ally after Israel in the region) will destabilize, cause the Kurds of Iraq will become autonomous and Turkeys Kurds will seek for unity with the new Kurdistan. That will enhance islamic powers in Turkey to emerge and will urge the Turks to have stronger bonds with the middle east in order to ensure its existence. Kurdistan will have an anti-USA but pro-Europe policy and will have major potentials. All Iraqi oil lies in Kurdistan in the oil-fields of Kirkuk.
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Alireza1354
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Who knows if it will happen ...
Saddam may burn in hell, and his creators in Washington too.
We are hard underway and no-one will stop us, no pentagon and certainly NO sharons or Saddams.
As the timespan is concerned.. according to political en economical analysts Asia is passing the west by slowly but surely. We muslims will profit from this shift of power.
As for ourselves, we want to work together and we are. Step by step the international and intra-national situations in the muslim world are shifting and maturing to a better alternative.
Iran is reforming, Iraq will soon change, the Qatari are expirementing with the freedom of speech, the arab states are growing to eachother, the south asian muslimstates are cristallyzing their plans for a common market, central asia is enstrengthening their bonds with the middle east., Lybia is investing in black africa and we have good bonds with China, south America and Europe.
Furthermore there is a frustrated Russia for loosing its position to the USA and there is an re-orienting Israel which will sooner or later make peace with us so we can live in harmony like we did for centuries with muslim spain as our great nostalgic legacy. Israel will in the long term be our Hong Kong.
As for Iraq..
Remember these words...
I will predict what will happen.
The puppetregime of Saddam will fall.
Iran (USA's greatest enemy) will become stronger cause the shi'ites of Iraq will seek for intensive cooperation with Iran. The reformers in Iran will be enstrengthened by the incoming Iraqi's and the fundamentalist regime will fall and will be followed by pragmatist nationalists who are very very very sceptic about the USA with the difference that they pose a greater threat to the USA and her interests cause they arent such idiots like the fundamentalists and know what they are doing. You will hear alot from Iran in the future
Turkey (USA's greatest ally after Israel in the region) will destabilize, cause the Kurds of Iraq will become autonomous and Turkeys Kurds will seek for unity with the new Kurdistan. That will enhance islamic powers in Turkey to emerge and will urge the Turks to have stronger bonds with the middle east in order to ensure its existence. Kurdistan will have an anti-USA but pro-Europe policy and will have major potentials. All Iraqi oil lies in Kurdistan in the oil-fields of Kirkuk.
The falling apart of Iraq will further widen the gap between Arabs and westerners.
Furthermore, Iraqi scientists will go to other Arab countries and bring their knowlegde with them hahah
Iraq will become a federation enstrangthening other countries and radically changing the outlook of the middle east and all will be against USA interests. It will only make us stronger.
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Ozymandias
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quote:
Originally posted by Alireza1354 I am an Arab from Morocco and I care about all muslims, not only the Arabs. The inter-arabian wars (and it weren't so many like the uncountable wars of Europe) were practically all wars between governments.
No race hates another in the world of Islam. That's a decease typical to westerners.
Well there is another development going on in the islamic world.
No longer will we abide by the system which you forced upon us.
No longer will there be artificial nationalities YOU made up to divide us.
Soon, we muslims will unite politically and economically "und dann wird es wirklich loss gehen." |
Well, I'm an American from New York and I care about all people, everywhere. And no I'm not trying to be "holier than thou" -- just think of it as my own religious belief.
I deduce from your comments that you believe that there is an underlying and unifying sentiment to "Islam" that is masked by "false" governments ruling artificial terriorial divisions by rulers of suspect legitimacy. That the "Islamic street" is the same in Aceh as the Atlas Mountains.
I implore you to think about this QUESTION, and NOT the answer, very hard: who should have succeeded Mohammed, the "elected" Caliphs or the heirs of Ali?
--No matter what anyone in particular feels, Sunnis have been fighting Shias since the 7th Century without any external encouragement and, last I checked, continue to do so today.
Libya against Chad; Libya against Egypt. Iraq against Kuwait. Iraqi against Iraqi. Egypt et. al. against Iraq because of Kuwait. Then of course Turks and Arabs got along so well together until 1918.
And before there were these artificial nations -- and prior to the dramatic expansion of the Seljuk sultanate in the 11th century -- caliphate warred with emirate, and soldiers did as they have always done.
Did that mean that these warring "peoples" hated each other? -- Hopefully not, and a lack of overwhelming hatred would hardly have been a unique phenomenon -- consider the bloody trenches of the western front of WWI, when soldiers simply stopped fighting one Christmas to exchange gifts and socialize with the "enemy". And then went back to killing each other the next day. Clearly hatred at work. (Is there a "smiley" for sarcasm?)
World views -- the individual constituents of culture, of what we assume and thereby act upon -- are effected by every aspect of our lives, every love and hate, every truth and falsehood, every sin and virtue. By religion, nation, language, local custom, etc. etc. etc.
Focusing on religion, there appears to be no more of a plurality among the 6 billion or so of us to "reunite" Islam than there is to reunify Christianity under the Pope.
Regarding "nation" itself, it's being re-evaluated, BTW, pretty much everywhere, and in every venue, these days. Some speak of (to quote the title of a recent book) "Sovereign Individuals". Others of the Christian Rapture. Others of One World Government. Others of "corporate republics". Some are born of hope, others of fear, others of greed. All suspect that we are living in a time where nations are too big to handle some incredibly important issues and yet too small to handle others.
Honestly, my friend (kindly forgive me if my addressing you so strikes you as in any way inappropriate) one people harboring a uniform hatred for another is a battle fought within every heart, not just of those who revere Allah. Sometimes the winners of this inner war for our greatest humanity are, without question, followers of Islam. Other times, they are unquestionably not.
To presume that we, as a species, might transcend our tribal wars is extremely noble. To think that any particular Tribe-Civ-Nation-Culture-Religion-Government-Whatever can do so has been the bases of the overwhelming majority of our most horrific wars and atrocities.
-- OK, one personal comment: concluding with a quote in German when there are so many apt and holy words in the Koran seems to suggest that it might be time for a long talk with a Mullah.
Salaam,
Ozymandias
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Traelin
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Miami, FL, US
Nov 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Alireza1354
Iran is reforming, Iraq will soon change, the Qatari are expirementing with the freedom of speech, |
Great. Freedom of speech is something we Westerners discovered hundreds of years ago. Glad to know Qatar may actually leave the 16th century and join the 21st.
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Traelin
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Miami, FL, US
Nov 2001
time: 00:22
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If you despise the West so much, might I suggest not buying a Western game? Why not go buy an Arab game? Oh, that's right. It's the Western culture that believes in free enterprise and creates works of art like CivIII.
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Alireza1354
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quote:
Originally posted by Traelin
Our ancestors discovered it long before then. The great Greek and Roman philosophers also gave it much thought and discourse.
At least our witch burning occurred centuries ago. Your region of the world is renowned for brutalizing people today. |
Greeks and Romans are mixed more with the people of the middle east and north africa than with the north europeans.
I know u would love to identify yourself with whatever has the smell of the middle east.
As for the freedom of speech, that has been experimented over centuries like in Persia of Kurosh and the city states of Akkad, long before the Greeks and Romans even existed.
As for the buring, our people are brutalizing cause they are weak and we know who made them weaker than they were and who want to keep them as such
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Alireza1354
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quote:
Originally posted by Traelin
If you despise the West so much, might I suggest not buying a Western game? Why not go buy an Arab game? Oh, that's right. It's the Western culture that believes in free enterprise and creates works of art like CivIII. |
Chinese believe in free enterprise, there are millions of free copies in China which drives the west mad.
Furthermore, technology is universal.
How ethnocentric u are!
But that is only in our interest.
Please continue being so!
O and Sid Meier is a Jew, a semite just like me hahaahha for the case if you really want to give a reaction to the ethnocentric part
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Ozymandias
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Right, this thread began on an interesting historic and philosophic note, swerved dangerously towards blind ideology, and got back on track, I thought, with some interesting and relevant opinions.
Now I'm reminded, by certain participants in the thread, of monkeys flinging dung at each other in cages in a zoo.
Why bother?? This wasn't an anti-anybody thread. There was a dangerous swerve towards anti-Semitism, which we recovered from, yet now we have degenerated from Arab history -- little studied and understood in America -- to brainless, witless, taunting, and inconsistent idiocies.
Alireza, frankly your views are idiosyncratic to an extreme -- which is fine, except not only are you OT but you tend to make sweeping statements without bothering to substantiate them in any fashion whatsoever. For all we know, you are brilliant and correct in your Nostradmus-like "predictions", but you evidently don't know history from a faery tale. Let's take one example: "Greeks and Romans are mixed more with the people of the middle east and north africa than with the north europeans."
Total nonsense. (1) both are Indo-European-- which Semite and Hamite are not. Both groups migrated southward to the Mediterranean. (2) The NORMANS conquered Sicily right around the time they conquered England. (3) The Italian peninsula was overrun by Goths, not Berbers (4) the German empire extended as far south as Rome; Moslem activity in that area of the Med was pretty much limited to piracy (5) There are quite a few modern "Greeks" with Viking blood in them, due to the Varangians becoming the palace guard at Constantinople ... Not to mentions Italians with significant Austrian heritage -- And all this is just the tip of the ethnographic iceberg.
Might I suggest you start a thread elsewhere, in one of the other sections on the site, for your rantings? Perhaps a discussion of imment, alternative energy sources to Middle and Near Eastern oil (corn-derived alcohol admixtures; hydrogen fuel cells; non-petroleum hydrocarbon reserves in Arctic ice) might help you focus on less vitriol and more humanity.
-Oz
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Traelin
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Miami, FL, US
Nov 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozymandias
Right, this thread began on an interesting historic and philosophic note, swerved dangerously towards blind ideology, and got back on track, I thought, with some interesting and relevant opinions.
Now I'm reminded, by certain participants in the thread, of monkeys flinging dung at each other in cages in a zoo.
Why bother?? This wasn't an anti-anybody thread. There was a dangerous swerve towards anti-Semitism, which we recovered from, yet now we have degenerated from Arab history -- little studied and understood in America -- to brainless, witless, taunting, and inconsistent idiocies.
Alireza, frankly your views are idiosyncratic to an extreme -- which is fine, except not only are you OT but you tend to make sweeping statements without bothering to substantiate them in any fashion whatsoever. For all we know, you are brilliant and correct in your Nostradmus-like "predictions", but you evidently don't know history from a faery tale. Let's take one example: "Greeks and Romans are mixed more with the people of the middle east and north africa than with the north europeans."
Total nonsense. (1) both are Indo-European-- which Semite and Hamite are not. Both groups migrated southward to the Mediterranean. (2) The NORMANS conquered Sicily right around the time they conquered England. (3) The Italian peninsula was overrun by Goths, not Berbers (4) the German empire extended as far south as Rome; Moslem activity in that area of the Med was pretty much limited to piracy (5) There are quite a few modern "Greeks" with Viking blood in them, due to the Varangians becoming the palace guard at Constantinople ... Not to mentions Italians with significant Austrian heritage -- And all this is just the tip of the ethnographic iceberg.
Might I suggest you start a thread elsewhere, in one of the other sections on the site, for your rantings? Perhaps a discussion of imment, alternative energy sources to Middle and Near Eastern oil (corn-derived alcohol admixtures; hydrogen fuel cells; non-petroleum hydrocarbon reserves in Arctic ice) might help you focus on less vitriol and more humanity.
-Oz |
Oz,
I may not always see eye to eye with you, but I have to say you are one of the most well-versed people I've met WRT history. BTW, I didn't mean to rant, but I just hate it when people make stereotypical statements like he/she did, that's why I got fired up. Thanks for bringing the topic back to where it should be.
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Ozymandias
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quote:
Originally posted by Traelin
Oz,
I may not always see eye to eye with you, but I have to say you are one of the most well-versed people I've met WRT history. BTW, I didn't mean to rant, but I just hate it when people make stereotypical statements like he/she did, that's why I got fired up. Thanks for bringing the topic back to where it should be. |
Seeing eye to eye is one of the least important things to me, assuming of course that a conversation is carried on with dignity, intelligence and respect (which, needless to say, excludes stereotyping and all manner of willful ignorance) -- and it is for your exhibiting these virtues that I now deeply thank you! ... Not that an occasional rant isn't good for what ails you 
Best Regards,
Oz
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26-10-2002 01:28
on it, but it's OK with me. 
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