06-09-2002 20:20									#1
	The Great Wall. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I know this is going to get no attention whatsoever but I just thought I'd share this thought with people here.

From what I have read, the Great Wall wasnt a protection for each and every city (like Civ2), it didnt come anywhere near to replacing city walls or have any relationship with them. The Great wall, as far as I know, was only intended to prevent invasions of mounted armies, men could find their way climbing trough it one way or another (like cutting nearby trees and piling them in front of the wall) but it was impossible to get horses from one side to the other. If any army crossed the wall, they would have to walk several miles of mountain on foot just to encounter a huge receiving in the nearest town/bridge/river (ancient chinese warfare was basicly over towns/bridges and rivers AFAIK).

The good thing would be to see it prevent mounted units crossing trough land borders. I know it wont happen, but as I said at the beguinning of the thread, I just tought I'd share this thoughts with you.

The wonders could use some helping, I think it makes far more sense when, for example, if Adam Smith's Co expires with Computers and Sun Tzu's with Rocketry. And the Manhatan Project being a small wonder (this one I didn't change tough).

	06-09-2002 20:23									#2
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Why would Sun Tzu's end with Rocketry? The Art of War is still on the reading list for military officers and just as applicable now as it was then. Have you read it?

	06-09-2002 20:25									#3
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BTW, the main way the hordes got through the great Wall was bribery.

	06-09-2002 22:18									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm Why would Sun Tzu's end with Rocketry? The Art of War is still on the reading list for military officers and just as applicable now as it was then. Have you read it?

Yeah Sun Tzu's should definitely not end with Rocketry (if at all IMHO). I admittedly haven't read it cover to cover, but you'd be surprised how many current military leaders still reference it.

	06-09-2002 22:21									#5
	Re: The Great Wall. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by XOR The wonders could use some helping, I think it makes far more sense when, for example, if Adam Smith's Co expires with Computers and Sun Tzu's with Rocketry. And the Manhatan Project being a small wonder (this one I didn't change tough).

I agree with Manhattan being a SW, but why would Smith's expire with Computers? It seems more fitting to expire it with a new tech like Modern Economics or something.

	06-09-2002 22:37									#6
	Re: The Great Wall. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by XOR I know this is going to get no attention whatsoever but I just thought I'd share this thought with people here. From what I have read, the Great Wall wasnt a protection for each and every city (like Civ2), it didnt come anywhere near to replacing city walls or have any relationship with them. The Great wall, as far as I know, was only intended to prevent invasions of mounted armies, men could find their way climbing trough it one way or another (like cutting nearby trees and piling them in front of the wall) but it was impossible to get horses from one side to the other. If any army crossed the wall, they would have to walk several miles of mountain on foot just to encounter a huge receiving in the nearest town/bridge/river (ancient chinese warfare was basicly over towns/bridges and rivers AFAIK). The good thing would be to see it prevent mounted units crossing trough land borders. I know it wont happen, but as I said at the beguinning of the thread, I just tought I'd share this thoughts with you. The wonders could use some helping, I think it makes far more sense when, for example, if Adam Smith's Co expires with Computers and Sun Tzu's with Rocketry. And the Manhatan Project being a small wonder (this one I didn't change tough).

hi ,

why dont you give the editor a good look , ....

you can make almost whatever you want with it , ...

have a nice day

	07-09-2002 01:58									#7
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Yes, I edited things already, you dont have to remember me.

I read Sun Tzu's Art of War in detail. Most of it deals with terrain information and the entire treatment considers only larger armies with slow mobility. Sun Tzu's axioms and laws, most of them, got obsolete since the German started with their blitzkrieg tactics, paradroping and special operations started taking place. Things like fire, terrain and weather no longer affect troops the way they did back them. Back then bad weather was a mess, today, it's an addition to camouflage. Back then an army division would be a large group of armed people that would encounter the enemy front to front, today, armies have an impressive mobility and deployability, you can no longer count on a front on one direction because the attack can as well come from behind, from above, or even from below.

	07-09-2002 02:28									#8
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How about the chapter on espionage?

	07-09-2002 05:44									#9
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Just to point out something XOR, Sun Tsu says that we should use regular force to engage and use special force to win. Did he ever mentioned that we need to fight enemy front to front in order to win? By the way
, special force doesn't mean 'elite force'. People always make this mistake. It means Unpredictable tactic or special tactic. Indeed, the Art of War is all about tactic and no so much about the physical army.
Another thing, does weather really not matter in moderm warfare? What did German suffer such a defeat at Moscow and Stalingrad? Why do people in Bush administration want to delay possible attack on Iraq till the winter?

	07-09-2002 06:24									#10
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I don't think Sun Tzu's should ever expire...it is perfect the way it is. It's about ground tactics and strategy, and barracks only affect your ground troops. Seems perfect to me.

Admittedly, if the combat system was more complex...perhaps Sun Tzu's could then be changed to be only about ground vs. ground troops....though it is hard to say. I mean, many of the concepts and thoughts are adaptable to modern warfare. So the barracks effect is slightly odd perhaps, but only slightly....probably the best Civ III can manage.

Hmm...perhaps all wonders should be small wonders though....but use a system similar to the tech researching system. Though instead of it being easier to build if one is already built, it takes more shields. Makes more sense to me that way, I have mixed feelings about the idea of "wonders."

-Moose

	07-09-2002 07:44									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Blue Moose Hmm...perhaps all wonders should be small wonders though....but use a system similar to the tech researching system. Though instead of it being easier to build if one is already built, it takes more shields. Makes more sense to me that way, I have mixed feelings about the idea of "wonders." -Moose

Thats the last thing all wonders should be! Having unique wonders adds alot of strategy to the game and can help a loseing civ gain a upper hand. Also making wonders not unique (like in Empire Earth) is an insult to the wonders themselves.

	07-09-2002 09:03									#12
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But, what is a wonder? Probably with another luck Pyramids could stay as another strange thing in the world, when Angkor Wat may be a "wonder".

A wonder creation should be realted to the culture power of a civ, when more powerful is a normal improvement of that civ (example: a cathedral) became a wonder.

For enable this, could be avaible the possibility of build a normal cathedral or pay more for it (mor powerful), and, with a random event, it probably becames unique and is capable to be wonder.

	07-09-2002 12:42									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The Empire State building was once the largest building in the world....you could argue at the time that it *was* a wonder....the Stature of Liberty is argueably a wonder in America, but does this stop another freedom loving country to make their own large monument to it? No, it doesn't, but people will typically only take much notice if it has something that is more impressive than the previous version.

If the Romans had wanted too, they could have made something better than the Pyramids (bigger, etc)...but they just didn't have that as part of their culture (though they did make their huge Colosseum, which is probably wonder-class).

They're making the Internet a wonder....and that is a feat that can be duplicated easily...but for it to compete you'd need a faster, better system....and so forth....

The Hoover Dam...that's another thing that any civilization with the resources could reproduce.

There is plenty of reason to allow a civ to make a wonder with a similar affect to what has come before. I am not saying all those wonders should have the same names or look the same, and perhaps there should be some small differences between them. But it makes a lot of sense to allow multiple versions of the 'same' wonders. At least with most wonders. Some things, such as the U.N., can really only have one in effect at a time.

Anyhow, that is how I think on the issue.

	07-09-2002 22:47									#14
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quote: Originally posted by XOR Yes, I edited things already, you dont have to remember me. I read Sun Tzu's Art of War in detail. Most of it deals with terrain information and the entire treatment considers only larger armies with slow mobility. Sun Tzu's axioms and laws, most of them, got obsolete since the German started with their blitzkrieg tactics, paradroping and special operations started taking place. Things like fire, terrain and weather no longer affect troops the way they did back them. Back then bad weather was a mess, today, it's an addition to camouflage. Back then an army division would be a large group of armed people that would encounter the enemy front to front, today, armies have an impressive mobility and deployability, you can no longer count on a front on one direction because the attack can as well come from behind, from above, or even from below.

hi ,

read it again , try to get a full edition , .....

paratroopers is one thing , but if you read it good enough you can find tactics that can be used by paratroopers and tactics that can be used to stop them , .....

in a front you can divide your fronts , .....this is what the meaning is , command and control , .....

you give in a way an answer to your own point , ....

if you know that the enemy can come from everywhere , what do you do then , ....

you get mobile , you learn to identify a thread , analise it , take action , .....

today a lot of armies still use his work , along other great works to make up manuals , ...

have a nice day

	08-09-2002 00:35									#15
	Re: Re: The Great Wall. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by panag hi , why dont you give the editor a good look , .... you can make almost whatever you want with it , ... have a nice day

Yes, almost. Actually, if you take a poll, "Can you make 'whatever' you want from the editor?" I will bet that you will find that 90% at least of the people here at apolyton will say 'no'. The editor is far short of what many of us wanted.

Don't get me wrong though, I think the editors great, just not great enough.

	08-09-2002 03:09									#16
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Hmmmm... sorry on the mistake, Sun Tzu's art of war is not "obsolete", it's contents are not really outdated, not all chapters, but it certainly is incomplete, it does not account for todays methods that introduce several different threats.

I think his treatment for making encampments and so on is totally outdated, in it he doesnt really explain on what he bases his rules, he just says "do it like this" instead of "do it so that you get to secure advantages of x, y, z, in order of priority". His treatment about espionage also seems very incomplete, including that he mixes espionage with recon. His treatment about fire IS obsolete, I cant see how fire could be used in a way connected to what he explains unless a battle is carried out on a city or forest and you set on fire hundreds of acres of land. I could go on and on, but I just intended to comment on the Great Wall, not on Sun Tzus. :P

	08-09-2002 16:41									#17
	Re: Re: Re: The Great Wall. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Schwang Yes, almost. Actually, if you take a poll, "Can you make 'whatever' you want from the editor?" I will bet that you will find that 90% at least of the people here at apolyton will say 'no'. The editor is far short of what many of us wanted. Don't get me wrong though, I think the editors great, just not great enough.

hi ,

the editor is far from complete , but , if you will take a good look at it you shall find that there are a lot of things that you can use , ....

and 90% on this site has not even given it a decent look , .......

so there judgement is a bit "weak" , ......

have a nice day

	08-09-2002 18:58									#18
	Re: Re: Re: Re: The Great Wall. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by panag hi , the editor is far from complete , but , if you will take a good look at it you shall find that there are a lot of things that you can use , .... and 90% on this site has not even given it a decent look , ....... so there judgement is a bit "weak" , ...... have a nice day

hi ,

how do I create farms on the editor?

how do I create advanced mines in the editor?

how do I make it so rairoads only change transportation and not the food and production?

how do I create airbases? (as tile improvement, like in Civ2)

how do I create trenches?

how do I make Paratroopers be able to airdrop from ANY city instead of needing airports?

how do I make bombers and paratrooper have a range of more than 8?

and how do I make the Great Wall prevent enemy mounted units from crossing trough land borders?

have a nice day

	08-09-2002 19:33									#19
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XOR - You are taking the text in The Art Of War far too literally. The Art Of War is considered required reading because while some of the terminology is dated, the ideas are timeless. Instead of just reading the text on the page, try to understand the ideas behind the text. I really wish I had my copy on me so I could be specific, but your dismissal of Chapter 12: Fire Attacks as out-dated is absurd. Forget the concept of 'fire' as a weapon but instead look at the focus of the chapter- using elements other than force in battle -

"The army must know the five changes of fire, to be able to calculate the appropriate days." Understand every possibilty that your tactic presents

"Those who use fire to assist in attacks are intelligent, those who use water to assist in attacks are powerful." The wise use indirect means to affect their enemy

"Water can be used to cut off the enemy, but cannot be used to plunder." Know the limitations of your tactics

etc.

Don't be thick! Read the book properly!

	08-09-2002 20:09									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It's required reading or whatever, but for modern war, it's incomplete. I am not meaning to discuss the Art of War in this thread, just how some wonders dont make sense to their original purpose. Putting aisde our obviously discrepant opinions about Sun Tzu's book, many wonders dont make the least sense.

Pyramids: The things were kings tombs, not big granaries.

Great Wall: Prevented invasions from mounted armies. It wasnt a magic sphere reinforcing all citywalls of the region.

Leonardos Workshop: The man was a reasearcher/inventor. What he did was of scientific value but it really did not connect to how much it costed to upgrade military armment.

Universal Suffrage: Reduces War Wariness. Allowing women to vote reduces war wariness? Besides, women can vote in almost every country in the world, it's not like its a unique wonder or so to say.

	08-09-2002 21:15									#21
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Does it really matter if they make total logical sense? Not in my opinion.

As far as Leonardo's Workshop goes, many of his drawings and researches for for military machines that wouldn't be built for many, many years (helicopter, parachutes, tanks to name just a few). If he had the support to manufacture these devices modern warfare would have come a lot earlier.

The true value of Universal Suffrage came in WW2 in the USA, when the women who now had full rights as citizens basically ran the country and the war effort in the absense of men.

These topics have been discussed to death previously. If you have a closed mind about them, nobody will be able to convince you no matter the strength of their arguments.

	08-09-2002 21:18									#22
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It's not unique to the US to start with...

	08-09-2002 21:21									#23
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The US was one of the first of the industrial nations and it was a new thing that has not been adopted in most of the world yet.

	08-09-2002 21:28									#24
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What? The US was the first to allow women to vote. The rest came right after, but the rest did come and did allow women to vote. It is not unique, it was unique for less time than the US had monopoly over nuclear weapons.

	08-09-2002 21:32									#25
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So? Does it matter? What matters is there's a wonder in the game that gives reduced war weariness to one player only. That's all that's important. What you call it doesn't really matter at all. I don't play for the histroical accuracy. I get way too much history, science, and warfare analysis in my job to worry about the accuracy of the game. I'm really only concerned if the game is fun. Wonders are fun because they give one team an advantage over the others.

	08-09-2002 21:41									#26
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Yes, and building big tombs gives you a granary in every city...

	08-09-2002 21:57									#27
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These were discussed during Civ 1 and 2, also. None of this is new, XOR. You aren't the first to point out that the wonders don't make sense. It's not realistic. I admit it. None of the Wonder effects are. Big Deal. They are a fun game mechanic.

	08-09-2002 22:06									#28
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm These were discussed during Civ 1 and 2, also. None of this is new, XOR. You aren't the first to point out that the wonders don't make sense. It's not realistic. I admit it. None of the Wonder effects are. Big Deal. They are a fun game mechanic.

Which is not bad, but, could be better... if there was a way to edit that much...

	08-09-2002 22:13									#29
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How precisely, in terms of the game, do you propose to make Sun Tzu's go obsolete? All the barracks in your civiliaztion suddenly disappear? Once a barracks is built, it doesn't fall down just because the wonder that begat it becomes obsolete. This is the reason the Pyramids can't become obsolete: the granaries would have to disappear.

	08-09-2002 22:18									#30
	Got spare money?

What exactly do you want to edit that you can't currently?